A War Of All Against All...

[Corno Dolce]

A thought-provoking article posted without comment:

http://02varvara.wordpress.com/2008...-lead-the-west-to-“a-war-of-all-against-all”/

 

[methodistgirl]

That was so true Corno. I was watching a video called Nuclear war and
believe me it was more true than what any scientist has told us or
the USA government. I just hope and pray it doesn't happen. I know
that the Lord watches and sees what is going on.
judy tooley

 

[Andrew Roussak]

Besten Dank Amigo CD!!!

He's definitely right.

Regards
Andrew

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha Andrew,

So good to see you back on MIMF. How was your trip to Italy? I'm almost positive that you had a great time. Yes, the priest has correctly identified a very serious situation on the horizon. Lets us pray that such a time of sorrow and woe beyond all comprehension will not come to pass.

Again, welcome back dear sir...

Cheerio,

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:

 

[Robert Newman]

It's an interesting and thought-provoking article that C.D. posted. From the Russian perspective (and I've some Russian speaking friends) any expansion eastwards (for example by NATO) is seen by them as contrary to signed treaties and as a direct threat to Russia itself. (Which is why Russia finally intervened in the Serbian conflict). They see these events as the prelude to another destabilisation and invasion of Russia by the Catholic led west - the first two examples being Napoleon's failed invasion of the early 19th century (papally approved) and then the Fascist invasion of Russia in World War 2 - again papally approved. Both of which events (in the eyes of Russians) were crude attempts to impose the Papacy on Russian people. As virtual 'crusades'. Further confirmed in their minds by such things as the cult of Fatima in the early 20th century which again urges Catholics to 'convert' Russia, for the papacy. Out of which came the artificially created 'Cold War'.

If at some point there really is a 'New World Order' which seeks to impose itself on other nations beyond the west the question of its impact on Russia is sure to emerge. Recent tragedies in South Ossetia and elsewhere are further proof to Russians of such a real threat.

We are certainly being told in many western news sources these days there is a threat to the western 'church' though I personally think this is not true and it's a separate issue. Such threats as we see today seem to be coming more on individual liberties and personal freedoms here rather than on western churches.

If we were more ready to defend the Christian faith by good deeds rather than give our souls to state churches (eastern or western) tyrants would not and could not create crusades of any kind. But some people see their church as the ultimate when of course, in fact, He, Christ, is the ultimate. I suppose religious fanatics are really the worst threat to our world, in Russia as here in the west.

2,000 years ago the state religious system of its time arrested, punished, tried and executed Jesus Christ with the full sanction and approval of its leadership at that time. They worshipped God. They sang psalms. They were even approved by their High Priest. Christ taught that those who garnish the tombs of the prophets were the very people who put them in there in the first place !

The most deceptive force throughout human history has not been religion but organised religion posing as truth and claiming to be truth. Often with mass approval by hysterical church members. Isn't that plain history ? But Christians know differently.

I would hate the day to arrive when organised churches were militantly confused with the Christian faith itself. He taught that 'my kingdom is NOT of this world'. Churches are at best vessels. They are compared to 'She'. But Christ is 'He'. And in this symbolism is a great truth.

Best wishes

 

[Andrew Roussak]

Aloha Andrew,

So good to see you back on MIMF. How was your trip to Italy? I'm almost positive that you had a great time. Yes, the priest has correctly identified a very serious situation on the horizon. Lets us pray that such a time of sorrow and woe beyond all comprehension will not come to pass.

Again, welcome back dear sir...

Cheerio,

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:

Hi CD,

thanks!! Well, I am surely happy to visit when I can...Now it's a holiday time - and we had to cancel a trip to US today because the visas were issued too late!! Damn! On the other hand, I have got suddenly two weeks free - can only make use of this time surfin' in www...

The trip to Italy was - as usual - great, thanks!! Time to prepare myself to another one...

For what Vs.Chaplin might actually mean - I am more than sure it was not against the western church but against the growing atheistic propaganda on TV and in pop-scientific issues like FOCUS. In Germany now, it is like an epidemy. Most of the people who define themselves as "atheists" are in fact esotherics - they either buy the books on Reiki or Fen Shui, or believe in personal horoscopes etc. So any person, declaring himself an "unfaithful" , continues to believe in his own gods. The evolution theory fairy-tale with the icon of Darwin in every school book and a charismatic figure of mr. Dawkins for more "advanced" users is actually a good example of another new cult. The basic moral norms will then be slowly replaced with "the fittiest will survive", the direct consequences of this could be - in an extreme case - the regimes like the stalinist USSR or maoist China. But the fools never learn. In this light, I am more than concerned that the confessional differences between western and eastern Christians are a secondary thing.

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha Mr. Newman,

I am heartened by your most recent comment and for touching on the cult of Fatima. The Russian people and their king Vladimir the Great were baptised as Orthodox Christians in 988. As long as Christian help organizations acknowlege the primacy of the Orthodox Church in Russia and its role as the Protector of Orthodox Christians there will be no undue tension.

More later...

 

[Robert Newman]

Aloha Mr. Newman,

I am heartened by your most recent comment and for touching on the cult of Fatima. The Russian people and their king Vladimir the Great were baptised as Orthodox Christians in 988. As long as Christian help organizations acknowlege the primacy of the Orthodox Church in Russia and its role as the Protector of Orthodox Christians there will be no undue tension.

More later...

Hi there C.D.,

Thanks. Yes. Unlike the Russian Orthodox leadership the papacy claims (and has always claimed throughout the whole span of its history since the Edict of Theodosius in around 381 A.D.) primacy over not simply the Roman Catholic faithful worldwide but also the entire Christian world and its civil governments (including all Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodoxy, Protestants, Mormons, virtually every church organisation worldwide), and not simply over Roman Catholic Christians in Russia. A belief which they actively seek to see realised through its policies, through its concordats with governments and political leaders, its ecumenical work and through its teachings and policies.

I'm happy not to agree with Rome in its claims to any primacy and even to say why since, in my view, Christianity is really a different religion with a different history from that which we can and perhaps should call Churchianity. One has a very dark and blood-stained history and the other is and has always been the true church. But yes, I completely agree civil and religious tolerance is the hallmark of what is right.

Best wishes

Robert

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha Mr. Newman,

To continue my earlier comment: The notion that the papacy is infallible irks me to no end. I can acknowlege the Pope as a human authority but there is where the line in the sand is drawn. As a convert to the Russian Orthodox Church I acknowlege the Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia as my spiritual father on earth. His emissary Metropolitain Hilarion is his right hand in America and I also see him as the shepherd for the American flock.

Ultimately, it boils down to that we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. However it is also important that we are willing to be in Unity within the Body of Christ through our service in the local parish. I am awaiting the choosing of the next Patriarch which will be announced at the end of January 2009. During the interim the Patriarchal Locum Tenens is Metropolitain Kyrill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad. Personally, I think he has an excellent chance of becoming the next Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia.

Please pray that God's Will may be done in this most important *election*. The time has long since arrived that the papacy must acknowlege the primacy of the Patriarch of the Russian Church as the supreme chief spiritual leader for the Russian Orthodox in Russia, in the diaspora, and everywhere there are converts to the Russian Orthodox Church. Each Church with its own leader is to be its own entity. As a convert, for me there is no ecumenicity with the other Churches - One is either Orthodox or not - No Fence-Straddling here! Yes, there can be official comity betwixt the Church leaders but Churches which have given themselves over to open prelest, apostasy, and heresy and proclaiming that God allows same-sex marriage, homo/lesbo priests, women priestesses, well, guess what? - That is a no go!!! We Orthodox then take the sandals off our feet, shake the dust off, turn around and walk away, never looking back!!!

Humbly and Respectfully yours,

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:

 

[Robert Newman]

Hi there C.D.,

Yes, papal infallibility is another example. (The belief that the papacy, in its teachings on matters of faith, 'ex cathedra', is unable to err).

I agree where you refer to -

Church leaders but Churches which have given themselves over to open prelest, apostasy, and heresy and proclaiming that God allows same-sex marriage, homo/lesbo priests, women priestesses

The problem is of course that doctrines and practices which are heretical to one church denomination or one congregation are valid and are binding on members of other churches. So that some people believe in ecumenicalism and dialogue with Rome for its own sake as some sort of solution and are even prepared to leave out the plain teachings of the bible to get it. Leading slowly but surely to accepting a vague marriage of convenience just for the sake of it. To me, this is the 'blind leading the blind' since the truth comes from the bible itself.

In my view (and that of others) the New Testament does NOT establish the Christian church on St. Peter as is widely believed and only the most crude reading of that passage (in Matthew's gospel) can be manipulated to say otherwise. Christ actually established his church not on Himself, nor even on Peter but on the revealing of Himself as He is to Peter (and to others). On 'THIS' rock (i.e. on the revelation of who I am) I will build my church'. For, 'flesh and blood has not REVEALED this' etc. Thus the Christian church was not built on a man. And certainly not on Peter. It was not built upon a papacy or an apostolic line of succession. But on the revelation of Jesus Christ. The colossal misunderstanding we see in the understanding of that one chapter is at the root of the papacy.

Furthermore, in the same chapter Peter (who later denied Him three times) is NOT that 'Rock' and is rebuked by Christ.

It's plain from many places that the Rock of the Christian faith is none other than the revelation of Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Not a man-made idea of apostolic succession or of men voted in to office who are said to succeed Peter.

Still, I believe each person is responsible personally and that some people have greater faith than others. (Faith being not a vague idea of belief but the very revealed truth of God).

I trust in no church for salvation and honestly believe no church has salvation. Only He.
Man-made denominations are surely the great curse of Christian times.

Well, each to their own.

Very best wishes

Robert

 

[Andrew Roussak]

Hi CD and Robert,

now my prayers for both of ya))

To be a member of Russian Orthodox Church in Germany is not pretty easy - the nearest church is within 50 km from our home, and if I was a catholic or protestant, I could go in a church which is literally a block away from us. My mentality is kinda more western than eastern, I like Bach more than Rachmaninow and the organ music more than choir singing. Still, I don't see any reasonable sense for me to convert - I have read pretty much of the Orthodox literature, and I can't remember a single point where I was disagree. In fact, I did many times caught myself on a thought - "hey, that's exactly what or how I see this !" .

For a catholic church - yes, there's a lot here to discuss. We are there where we are after ONLY 1000 years from barbarism and this is great. This way led not only through Universities founded by mostly catholic church, but also through Crusades, Hexenhammer and Inquisition. That's true too. But it only shows me how RIGHT the way generally was and how more EFFECTIVE it might be without all these mistakes - many would say crimes - made by catholic church.

But the modern catholic church is for me kinda more about CARITAS and many various charity actions to help the poor, rather than about acts of religious fanatism. What can be bad here ? One may put it simple - charity and good deeds - YES. Pope as the main or general representative of Jesus Christ on Earth - NO.

In my view (and that of others) the New Testament does NOT establish the Christian church on St. Peter as is widely believed and only the most crude reading of that passage (in Matthew's gospel) can be manipulated to say otherwise. Christ actually established his church not on Himself, nor even on Peter but on the revealing of Himself as He is to Peter (and to others). On 'THIS' rock (i.e. on the revelation of who I am) I will build my church'. For, 'flesh and blood has not REVEALED this' etc. Thus the Christian church was not built on a man.

This is almost literally how the ROC sees it, btw.

I also think that it is a good will what finally counts. I would never argue with a catholic , protestant or moslem which faith or confession is better. If the God Almighty is nothing but Eternal Love, I don't see why He can't let some people run to him , or to go, or even to crawl . The general direction is what wins in the end.

Otherwise, pure historically there could be not a single chance to preserve the religion for at least 100 years if there was no such an organisation like a church out there. Many would say the catholic church did its job bad - well, but it did it nevertheless, and that for about 1700 yrs. till now. Surely the PERSONAL choice of confession is an absolutely PERSONAL thing. But, if EVERYBODY would pray only at home, the esotheric cults or sects like scientology will within one generation take over.

Regards and all the best in 2009,
Andrew))

 

[Robert Newman]

Hi there Andrew,

Yes, several friends of mine are members of the Orthodox Church. Honest people. My experiences with Orthodox people is very good and I have great respect for them. One of them is Armenian. I also met a Serbian Orthodox priest some years ago in London who was very, very friendly and helpful when I was looking for books. Still another was an Ethiopian Coptic priest - a great reader himself. (He was very friendly also). And I've often experienced the friendship of invididual Roman Catholics. I completely agree the personal choice of what we confess is an absolutely personal thing.

Regards and all the best for this new year !!

Robert

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha Mr Newman,

Yes, the Church is the Bride of Christ - He laid down His life for His great Love.

Man-made denominations? Yes, they are a demonic curse - they are mutual-interest fellowships which gleefully pick and choose which verses, chapters, and books of the Bible they wish to adhere to whilst pitching out the rest like the baby with the bathwater. There but for the Grace of God go I - Lord have Mercy on me and save me from such an exceedingly bitter woe and fate.

Jesus is the God-Man revealed. He is God incarnate on earth - Those who have seen Him have seen the Father - Those who have not seen Him but yet believe and confess and name Him as their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are forevermore written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Ummm - Ethiopian Coptic? Well, there's the Egyptian Coptic Church and then there is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

Yes, the choice is ours to make - whether we choose to take up our Cross and follow Jesus or choose to follow the convention of the day and modify it for our own personal taste. For me, the simplest yet most profound illustration of God's Love for us is when the thief who hung on the cross to the right of Jesus, who accepts the consequences of his wrongful actions, rebukes the thief on the left, and then looks to Jesus and says: *Remember me when Thou comest into Thy Kingdom* - Jesus then looks to him and says: *Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise*.

That is such a revelation of Redemption and Salvation! A man who was probably a career criminal, who probably burned with carnal lust for women and deflowered them, who caroused and debauched himself - yes, a most contemptible wretch of a human being. And then Jesus saving the thief right there on the spot - no questions asked!!! That must have been a real shocker for the onlookers at Jesus Crucifixion.

 

[Corno Dolce]

Besten Freund Andrew - Wie Geht's?

Yes, I understand that it is difficult to be an Orthodox Christian in Germany - the land of Luther but also Johann Eck. Not too long along I visited this Church in Leipzig: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Leipzig_Russische_Gedaechtniskirche.jpg

You mention *Caritas* - Yes, that is most noble but don't kid yourself - the Roman Catholic Church will act upon the Great Commision given by the Triune God: *Go ye therefore out and make disciples Panta-Ethne* - In the Caritas work of the Roman Catholic Church they will actively seek out to win converts.

Mother Teresa, whose ministry here on earth was very Christ-like won people over to Christ by the way she showed her Love, and by her physical actions manifested Christian Love in action amongst the absolute poor in India - amongst the Hindus - a totally different Faith system. What a wonderful testimony she presented to the World.

Aha, you have not converted to Orthodoxy, yet you have read much from those who live and work as Orthodox - I shall fervently say more prayers for you that you'll be snatched up and brought into the Bosom of Our Triune God.

I share with you a thought by Father Lev Gillet, a convert to Orthodoxy, from the Western Church:

*O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and so weak...maintained as if by a miracle through so many vicissitudes and struggles; Church of contrasts, so traditional and yet at the same time so free, so archaic and yet so alive, so ritualistic and yet so personally mystical; Church where the Evangelical pearl of great price is preciously safeguarded - yet often beneath a layer of dust...Church which has so frequently proved incapable of action - yet which knows, as does no other, how to sing the joy of Pascha!*

Elder Nektary of Optina says: *Orthodoxy cannot be spoken about, It must be lived*

People ask me about the Divine Liturgy in the Orthodox Church - I then am at a loss for words - I warmly invite them to *experience* a service, such as a Vespers, Akathist, Moleben, or a Pannikhida - These are prayer services.

Blessed Andrew, as a former salaried organist and as a paid professional singer/choir member in the Lutheran Church I struggled with the thought that I would not play the organ or any other instrument in Church if I converted to the Orthodox Church. As a musician I have gained so much more treasure having joined the Orthodox Church.

I am still able to fully experience the message from the Fifth Evangelist whom we know as JSBach. The choir is the organ and I do not experience a loss if there is only choir music in Church. JSBach and Sergei Rachmaninoff are my guiding lights in my musical life - both of them are Christians and for me, represent the best that God has yet given to man as a Gift.

The fruits of their labors as composers is a Gift that will keep on giving to all generations, now and in the future. Their names will be fondly and warmly remembered in history unto the ages of ages.

Humbly and Respectfully yours,

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:

 

[Robert Newman]

Aloha Mr Newman,

Yes, the Church is the Bride of Christ - He laid down His life for His great Love.

Man-made denominations? Yes, they are a demonic curse - they are mutual-interest fellowships which gleefully pick and choose which verses, chapters, and books of the Bible they wish to adhere to whilst pitching out the rest like the baby with the bathwater. There but for the Grace of God go I - Lord have Mercy on me and save me from such an exceedingly bitter woe and fate.

Jesus is the God-Man revealed. He is God incarnate on earth - Those who have seen Him have seen the Father - Those who have not seen Him but yet believe and confess and name Him as their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are forevermore written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Ummm - Ethiopian Coptic? Well, there's the Egyptian Coptic Church and then there is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

Yes, the choice is ours to make - whether we choose to take up our Cross and follow Jesus or choose to follow the convention of the day and modify it for our own personal taste. For me, the simplest yet most profound illustration of God's Love for us is when the thief who hung on the cross to the right of Jesus, who accepts the consequences of his wrongful actions, rebukes the thief on the left, and then looks to Jesus and says: *Remember me when Thou comest into Thy Kingdom* - Jesus then looks to him and says: *Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise*.

That is such a revelation of Redemption and Salvation! A man who was probably a career criminal, who probably burned with carnal lust for women and deflowered them, who caroused and debauched himself - yes, a most contemptible wretch of a human being. And then Jesus saving the thief right there on the spot - no questions asked!!! That must have been a real shocker for the onlookers at Jesus Crucifixion.

Thank you again C.D.,

Robert

 

[sunwaiter]

i don't see who are the"church-haters", the "persecutors" mister Chaplin talks about. well, ok, there are conflicts, and people have always fought each other to determine which civilization, which belief, etc was the strongest. until today religion has provided us too many reasons to break the sacred "don't kill no one" law. what about the "non-believers"? i hope there is no confusion. to be honest i find this article quite creepy. i assume that there is a christian heritage in europe and beyond, but human values don't necessarily need it. i don't reject church or christian values, i just don't need it. things that start end too. we evolve, and it's true that i hope we will get along in peace one day, without any particular doctrine. i'm always trying to listen to people around me as best as i can.

the economic blocks are real, the power of money is real, and i agree that the great difficulty is to fight against isolation, at all scales. but there is more than christianity, islam or whatever you may prefer. there is US! i do BELIEVE in man's intelligence and in peace, no matter how hardcore, violent, unfair, revulsing, desparate the world seems to be today.

 

[Andrew Roussak]

i don't see who are the"church-haters", the "persecutors" mister Chaplin talks about. well, ok, there are conflicts, and people have always fought each other to determine which civilization, which belief, etc was the strongest. until today religion has provided us too many reasons to break the sacred "don't kill no one" law. what about the "non-believers"? i hope there is no confusion. to be honest i find this article quite creepy. i assume that there is a christian heritage in europe and beyond, but human values don't necessarily need it. i don't reject church or christian values, i just don't need it. things that start end too. we evolve, and it's true that i hope we will get along in peace one day, without any particular doctrine. i'm always trying to listen to people around me as best as i can.

the economic blocks are real, the power of money is real, and i agree that the great difficulty is to fight against isolation, at all scales. but there is more than christianity, islam or whatever you may prefer. there is US! i do BELIEVE in man's intelligence and in peace, no matter how hardcore, violent, unfair, revulsing, desparate the world seems to be today.

But, Sunwaiter, the correspondence between the atheistical regimes and mass murders like holocaust and GULAG is nevertheless clearly seen . The all-known examples, where atheism was a state ideology , are known to be USSR, maoist China, the 3rd Reich of Hitler ( well, the latter one was racistic to it ). I mean I have read it somewhere, and I can even look for a link to that website - but it has been even calculated, that the correspondence between the atheism as a state ideology and the brutality of this state system is more than 80 % - this is stronger than the correspondence between smoking and getting cancer.

Of course you personally can be an atheist and a good and honest person, as well as you can be a smoker and don't have cancer. Don't forget you were born in a society which still have Christian traditions. The problem begins when atheism becomes a mass ideology and "love your nearest" will be replaced by the "fittiest will survive". For what it's worth - I was born in the Soviet Union and basing on an example of my own family know how did it practically work in Stalin's times.

 

[sunwaiter]

saddam hussein believed in god but led a laicist regime. he murdered masses of people.

to me the theory you mentioned doesn't work, though it's clear that the clash between religions and totalitarisms don't help...... the one who don't believe is not necessarily a church-hater or something approaching this, as you also rightfully remarked.

making atheism an ideology is pure non sense to me. but i know some people are able to do such a thing (like adolf, tse-tung, etc)

this problem can be compared with the "democracy" classic problem: for example, in my country, every political party is supposed to have the right to be represented, and to make its promotion. we all have an extreme-right-wing party with very scary motivations and worshipers. for example, people who would vote for death penalty, racial distinction (segregation), abortion prohibition, etc. a person who has just a bit of humanity is always scared by a possible success of such a party (well, i am), but the fact is that they have the right to express themselves and to exist, because we don't live under a pure totalitarist regime. so there is a risk, but it must be taken.

to be honest i don't see why i should give so much importance to the christian traditions? i don't celebrate christmas, easter or anything. i'm happy to live in my country because it's much better than so many others, and most of all, i do not feel any need to keep christian traditions alive. i respect my patrimony, but that's all.

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha sunwaiter,

You have been mentioning *Humanity* on another thread and that you don't need religion and dogmas. I suppose you are cognizant of what happened in France during Napoleon's rule - many Churches were turned into *Temples of Reason*. The Church called *La Madeleine* at the end of rue Royale in Paris was originally built to be a *Temple of Reason* but then with the fall of Napoleon the building was to become a railway station - In 1842 it was finally consecrated as a Church.

Best regards,

CD

 

[sunwaiter]

i am not Napoleon. if catholic or any other kind of believer wants to jubilate because things got back to "normal" , what does it have to do with me?