Bach, Couperin and Rameau Organ or harpsichord?

[Dorsetmike]

Hi, I've been listening to a fair bit of harpsichord music recently including some pedal harpsichord. Many of the pieces are more usually heard on the organ these days, especially the Bach pieces.

I do know of at least one organist who had a harpsichord at home for practice, a pedal one at that. Is this a common practice? (no pun intended!)

Being retired I now spend much of my time sat at the PC, and a fair bit of that time I'm also listening to music and browsing various sites hunting for music.

Today I found this Rameau Gavotte and 6 variations

http://www.last.fm/music/Jean-Phili...ord+Music,+Vol.++2/VII.+Gavotte+and+6+Doubles

Hope this link works, find a box top right of the screen and click the play arrow, just under 8 minute track.

To my mind that could be interesting transposed for organ, has anybody in MIMF land tried it? In places (particularly the later variations) it sounds as though it might be a pedal instrument, either that or Gilbert Rowland (the performer) has an extra hand, comments?

One piece I can't make up my mind about between organ or pedal harpsichord and that is the Bach Passacaglia and Fugue in C min. BWV582, I have versions of both instruments, sometimes I like one sometimes the other.

What I do not like though is keyboard music of the baroque period played on a piano, it shouldn't be allowed!! Am I alone in this?

Discuss!!

 

[Dorsetmike]

Further to the above post, I found a free PDF of the sheet music for the Rameau Gavotte and variations at
http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/rameau/nouv_p_de_clavec/Rameau_Gavotte_Am.pdf

there is also another audio file of it on the same site
http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/rameau/nouv_p_de_clavec/Rameau_Gavotte_Am.mid

There seem to be a few differences between the two versions almost as though the second one has been slightly simplified, or maybe the first one was interpreted a little more freely? Having followed both versions with the score I retract my comment re a pedal harpsichord being used in yesterdays post

Given the sheet music availability would someone like to give it a try on organ and come up with an MP3 for us? How about a contest, see who can do the best interpretation!!

 

[Robert Newman]

Hi there Mike !

I listened to the Rameau piece you posted. It finally caught fire !

Interesting you say keyboard music of the baroque period should not be played on a piano.

Shortly before her death in 2003 the American Bach scholar and performer Rosalyn Tureck gave a radio interview on this same subject of the piano and Bach's music. She started by refering to recently discovered documentary evidence that amongst other things JS Bach was a sales agent for pianos made by Silbermann. One of which Bach seems to have sold to a count in Poland. She continued by talking of the Goldberg Variations, arguing these were almost certainly written with a pianoforte in mind.

I've no aversion to listening to Bach on modern instruments. But yes, these days there are some tremendous period recordings. In terms of orchestral music I must say that in recent years I've come to prefer period instrument orchestras much more than a few years ago. Still, in solo pieces I prefer modern instruments.

Regards

Robert

 

[Dorsetmike]

I think we may have got more used to Bach on modern instruments but not so much with Couperin, Rameau and Scarlatti. But following that line would be digressing from organs too much, maybe food for a new thread elsewhere.

 

[acc]

What I do not like though is keyboard music of the baroque period played on a piano, it shouldn't be allowed!! Am I alone in this?

Obviously, a lot of research has gone into baroque performance practise, leading to much better knowledge of it (and above all to much greater concern for it) than, say, 50 years ago. So please don't misunderstand me: I don't wish to underestimate the importance of finding out how those guys back in the 17th/18th/19th centuries actually played.

That said, I don't see anything wrong with a performance of 18th century music on 20th/21st century instruments. Obviously, the harpsichord and the piano are two different instruments (who just happen to share a common feature, i.e. the keyboard), so we might call it a "transcription" (where the transcriber's job just happens to be very easy, i.e. copy note for note:grin. As long as one is aware that it's not "the original thing", where is the problem?

P.S. There is a big difference between "I do not like" and "it shouldn't be allowed".

 

[Andrew Roussak]

Hi Dorsetmike,

the topic of using period instruments is of course a very interesting one ,and it is not only about piano vs. clavicembalo - how about using the vibrato techniques in chamber music, for example?

For the keyboards - mmmm, frankly speaking I can't tell I would definitely prefer the piano performance to the clavicembalo one or vice versa. The nuancing is actually a keyword here . You can widely use forte/piano nuancing , i.e. play lower or louder on the piano, and the possibilities of clavicembalo nuancing look obviously poorer - you can use only tempo variations and melodic nuancing like appologiatura, that's why the baroque music is full of elements like thrills, gruppetto, pralltriller etc.

I have once listened to the very interesting broadcast on the SWR2 ( a radio channel for the classical music in Germany ) where the performances of the same pieces of Couperin , Rameau on the clavicembalo and on the piano were compared. They have really invited a piano and a clavicembalo player in the studio, and they have played the same stuff after each other, and then it was discussed. This is simply a wonderful music in both cases, and I would say - the period performance sounds always more authentic, whereas the piano performance works more expressive. So if I had absolutely no idea about what the story is , it is a question whether I would definitely say, the period performance works better on me.

After all, it is also a matter of habit too - after I have thousand times listened to Goldberg Variations as recorded by Gould , I can't imagine I would ever prefer a period version of them.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[Flute'n'Pedal]

Hi Dorsetmike,

I think this question of harpsichord versus piano is very relevant to organists, as it affects our interpretation of Bach's works.
My own teacher does not like to use the swell pedal at all in Bach, for the reasons that "there was no swell pedal back then" and "Bach didn't write for the piano-forte." But if it is true that Bach was a salesman for pianos, then we have to consider that he was interested in crescendo and diminuendo. This means that the swell pedal is an option when performing his organ works, just as the piano ís an option when performing his harpsichord works.
I think that what's important is that one gives a consistent and tasteful performance.

LlL

 

[acc]

Another point is that it's not only a matter of "the harpsichord" vs. "the piano". For example, an 1850 Érard and a modern Bösendorfer, though both called "piano", are miles apart from each other (and there, too, people are interested in "period instrument" performances; cf. the recent mention of van Immerseel's recording of Franck and Debussy in another discussion).

So if one argues (and some people do) against playing harpsichord works on the piano, one should also argue (but nobody does) against playing 19th century piano music on, say, a modern Bösendorfer.