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Priest
Feb-29-2004, 15:40
Yesterday I had a talk with a friend of mine, about what the neoconservative cabinet of the US, would do to hold their grasp of supremacy. Well... a good way to have another 4 years clinging to the throne, might be the capture of Osama bin Laden, dead or alive, close to the elections 2004.

British and US intelligence have been very eager to tell the public that Osama bin Laden is "still alive". Struggle for supremacy might remind us a little once in awhile about George Orwell's 1984. All material about the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden is allways something like, we got this anonomus tape with a voice that might be the voice of Osama etc.

What measure would a regime be willing to take to stay in power. When politics is guided by oil and the interest in winning the public opinion it's hard to say, but it does sometimes give you food of thought.

Why is it, that the US government aren't interested in giving the independt comitee, made for unravelling the questions about sep. 11, some extra 60 days? If they have nothing to hide, 60 days is nothing compared to the historical value of what happened that dreaded day where we saw the Twin towers collapse.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the US has been in desperately need of a new enemy. The world is settling for a new fault lines. The era, we can call Pax Americana is on it's verge of dissolving. The US are well aware, that it is impossible to be the one who is calling the shots for a longer while, so what better way is there, than declaring war on the Unseen enemy? And does this enemy actually exist at all? These questions are of course impossible to answer, and as a part of the general public you can only guess. The US might be right or they might be staging an excuse for making a new Crusade.

But it is not unheard of, that regimes stage events for the purpose of powerstruggle. Take for an example the capture of Saddham Hussein. Was he captured be Kurds and then handed out to the US military? Another good example... the Reich Tag.

Anyway. Here is two related articles snatched from links from Aljazeera.com.

The first article is about the scheming of the US capture of Osama. Linked from Prison Planet.

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/whos_lying/news.asp?whos_lying_news_id=5

The second is linked from CNN, about the ongoing war on terrorism.

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/whos_lying/news.asp?whos_lying_news_id=6

For those of you, who reads danish, here's a news story fron journalists from Iran, that also refers to the staging of Osama bin Ladens capture.

http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.sasp?PageID=308616


Also for further reading about politics of supremacy I can recommend the book "The End of the American Era", by writer Charles Kupchan, member of the National Security Council and former advisor to Clinton.

Anyway. Post your comment on this matter.

Priest
Feb-29-2004, 15:48
Talking of the subject. Here's two interesting quotes. Guess I have posted my opinion now.

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same in any country."

-Hermann Goering (1893 - 1946)
Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, President of the Reichstag, Prime Minister of Prussia and Hitler's designated successor

The second in command of the Third Reich




"These [terrorist] attacks are not inevitable. They are, however, possible, and this very fact underscores the reason we cannot live under the threat of blackmail…The terrorist threat to America and the world will be diminished the moment that Saddam Hussein is disarmed."

-George W Bush (1946- )
Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces

President of the United States of America

Priest
Feb-29-2004, 15:56
"A Lie Told Often Enough Becomes The Truth"

-Vladimir Lenin

"a newspaper is not just for reporting the news, it's to get people mad enough to do something about it."

-Mark Twain

Priest
Feb-29-2004, 16:11
Here's a step by step guide of how to create an enemy, by Dan Berman.

http://www.theboywhocriediraq.com/

Note from the annoying admin: This is indeed an interesting and important debate you have started here, but would you mind in the future to edit existing posts instead of making a new one for just one link https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Frederik Magle
Feb-29-2004, 16:35
This is where I stand: I'm very Pro-American!! Unfortunately I find it almost impossible to be Pro-Bush...

I'll go back in time a little to before 9/11. Long before that act of evil and misguided terrorism, I wanted to see the Taliban regime away from power - who didn't? - this was one of the worst regimes in newer times and after 9/11 I was 100% behind the invasion of Afghanistan! There was no doubt in my mind that the Taliban and Al Qaida was working close together and there were hundres of other good reason to overthrow that regime. UN and NATO thought the same and backed the amreican-led invasion. And so did I and still do...however...after the victory, resources should have been spend on rebuilding that war-torn contry, but enter Iraq.

Although there indeed was several good reasons for invading Iraq and removing the dictator Saddam, there was at least as many good reason not to! And the reasons presented to the americans and the international society was doubtful at best. The were no WMD and, unfortunately, I suspect the Bush administartion knew this all the way. There is an old saying that "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". That is true. Iraq could very well end up as an Islamic republic like Iran because of the majority of Shia muslims - they've already passed laws removing womes rights!

Now the war is over, there is no other alternative than to fully support the rebuilding of Iraq, but I'm very weary where it will lead... Hell is just one mis-step away.

Priest
Feb-29-2004, 16:59
Well. We've already got a new media hotspot. Haiti.Things is going bad in the US, so let's take away the notion, by fighting a new place.

With the US, contributing themselves as being the Land of God, what happened to "Thou shalt not kill"?

Anyway. I've never been pro-american, and are it even less now. The thing I find scary is how I start to feel an european identity easier to swallow, the more the US is [censored] up.

I have even started to be supportive of a strong EU military in contrast to the unilateral supremacy of the US.

Our world is overcrowded, and we're settling for a new war. I guess that the times of US supremacy is fading giving space for a multi-polar world. But we all know what happened last time the world was multipolar. I fear that the darkest of our last hundred years of history is going to repear itself, just with more advanced technology.

So many places around our world is on the verge of exploding, and it's going to be bad. We should no longer look away from the facts, that our(the western world) exploits of the third world has dire consequences. Billions of people are living in extreme poverty, and they're very soon going to be fed up.

I think the only way to salvation is to have the world bank to cancel the loans to all the development countries. You can't bomb to fight terrorism or problems. This calls for longterm solutions. We have to rebuild the world. It takes time and effort. It calls for leaders that are able to think and take a responsibility, and not a fight for polls. You can't fight fire with fire when it comes to terrorism. It's like putting a fire out with gasoline.

Unfortunately I'm not able to be optimistic about our future excistence. We have already gone way over the line, and when the wheel of capitalism and globalisation is spinning there's no way back.

And if we do get another great war. Will we even learn from it?

KBOC
Oct-17-2005, 05:27
Fredrik,

Never fall in love with a politician, he or she will dissapoint you every time.

Bush is an example. He has alienated a lot of his core support. Right now you'll hear of a lot of polls in the U.S. on how Bush's poll ratings are in the dumper.

This has zero to do with the war on terror or the war in Iraq.

It has a whole lot to do with the boarder with Mexico which is an absolute disgrace (those that cross the boarder laying waste to family farms along the boarder as well as the Mexican army crossing over and threatening people that live along the boarder). It has a whole lot to do with the price of oil as well, which Bush can do nothing at all about.

The core of Bushe's supporters are 100% behind the effort in Iraq. They're not entirely convinced the war is going well, but this latest election shows otherwise.

The Mainstream Media in this country consistently reports that Iraqis want us out out out, but Iraqi expatriots as well as returning troops tell a completely different tale.

This election was not a victory for Bush. It was a victory for the Iraqi people. Many are optomistic even IF the refferendum fails to ratify the new Constitution.

I've read that constitution, and done some comparing to the U.S. Constitution (which I consider to be the worlds greatest document)... while the Iraqi constitution seems to have its issues, I see a great deal of wisdom in it. If it fails, I have little doubt hammering out a new document wouldn't be very difficult for the interim government.

The speed of this process, only two years after the toppling of Saddam's regime, is extraordinary!

I wish I could have been there to witness the voters, dressing in their "sunday best" to walk miles to vote! The pride of their purple fingers, the dancing in the streets...

Fortunately, we have in the U.S. an "alternative media" that brings us these images. I don't think this exists yet in Europe but I'm sure it will at some point. It is a media which continuously exposes fabricated news that is agenda driven. Without that balance, there would be no message of hope...

But I digress https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Notice please that Dubya has no alternative here. The opposition, in the form of the Democrat Party, is even less popular than the Republican party. Where the Republican Party doesn't do things the way things aught to be done, the alternative is far worse.

There is a recruitement drive going on in the United States right now, perhaps you've heard this, perhaps not, to draft Condoleezza Rice to run for President. She is, by far, the most popular figure in the Republican Party. Personally, I'd be very proud to vote for her... though I don't expect she'd be terribly different than Bush... the alternative, Hillary, is... unthinkable...

So far as Afganistan: Rebuild? Rebuild what? There was nothing there save a few profitable poppy fields! Afganistan is being BUILT from SCRATCH!

Hopefully Afganistan will become self sustaining at some point... but there was never any hope it would be in the forseeable future.

Priest
Oct-25-2005, 16:09
I'm not that keen on Condoleeza rice.. she's a vile bitch as far as I reckon. Her agendas are harsh, fair to a certain extent, though I dislike the whole fundament she is standing on.

Main problem as I see it with neocons is that their whole way of thinking is so corrupted by the wills of the major corporations.. or to be more precise. The leading neocons all represents some of the largest companies in the country. Personally I think that there should be a bigger divide between companies and state to wage an acceptable campaign.

.. this counts as well for a separation of church and state.. either it will not be suitable for US to be active in the middle east.

ApeXX
Oct-26-2005, 03:49
This is where I stand: I'm very Pro-American!! Unfortunately I find it almost impossible to be Pro-Bush...

I'll go back in time a little to before 9/11. Long before that act of evil and misguided terrorism, I wanted to see the Taliban regime away from power - who didn't? - this was one of the worst regimes in newer times and after 9/11 I was 100% behind the invasion of Afghanistan! There was no doubt in my mind that the Taliban and Al Qaida was working close together and there were hundres of other good reason to overthrow that regime. UN and NATO thought the same and backed the amreican-led invasion. And so did I and still do...however...after the victory, resources should have been spend on rebuilding that war-torn contry, but enter Iraq.

Although there indeed was several good reasons for invading Iraq and removing the dictator Saddam, there was at least as many good reason not to! And the reasons presented to the americans and the international society was doubtful at best. The were no WMD and, unfortunately, I suspect the Bush administartion knew this all the way. There is an old saying that "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". That is true. Iraq could very well end up as an Islamic republic like Iran because of the majority of Shia muslims - they've already passed laws removing womes rights!

Now the war is over, there is no other alternative than to fully support the rebuilding of Iraq, but I'm very weary where it will lead... Hell is just one mis-step away.



I stand beside you on most of the things you have said. I am Pro-American and Conservation, however I dislike Bush. I think that he came into office with the wrong plans, most of which not even conseratves agree with. Believe it or not, I am not one of the people that is going to "bash" him about the war. If he had not gone to war, and years later we found that there were weapons of mass destruction, Bush would have been ridiculed for not going to war. Either way, there would have been poeple that would criticize him.

KBOC
Oct-26-2005, 17:54
Main problem as I see it with neocons is that their whole way of thinking is so corrupted by the wills of the major corporations..



The single most corrupt organization on earth is the United Nations. It is run by a cabal of shady characters with direct connections to Saddam Hussein and Jaques Chiraq with billions in kickbacks to U.N. officials and massive amounts of money going to Hezbolla and Al Qaeda from Saddam's regime.

Blaming U.S. Corporations is the most ridiculous cop-out in the world. It is especially ridiculous since the oft repeated idiocy of the U.S. supplying Saddam with Chemical Weapons is a complete lie.

The three nations that supplied Saddam:
1. France
2. Germany
3. Singapore

Who built Saddam's nuclear reactor that the United Nothing couldn't find, and Israel blew up?

Jaques Chiraq.

Anyway... you have no ground to stand upon in your obvious hatred of the U.S.

So far as Condi Rice... https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I'll be proud to vote for her if she runs.

giovannimusica
Jan-16-2006, 00:28
One just needs to ask Kofi Annan where the *Mercedes* is and then you'll find out how corrupt the UN is. How can one possibly defend an organization whose blue-helmeted soldiers raped thousands of seven-year old girls in Liberia or did nothing to stop the slaughter of a million people when the Hutus and the Tutsi's when berserk???

Time has come to cut down the UN, commit it to the fiery furnace and create a body called the League of Democracies where all members come from democratically elected governments.

Giovanni

Gareth
Jan-16-2006, 05:48
A few weeks ago, I heard of a documentary, which had actual footage of a US Defence plane being the first one to fly into the tower, the plane had no windows apparantly (hence the reason why they thought it belonged to the Defence force), but would you think that the Defence Force of America would do that, so George Bush had an excuse to Invade Afganistan??

My opinion on the matter is a no, I don't see why they would.

Priest
Jan-16-2006, 18:55
why not.. I don't think they have as well.. though I would believe that someone in the administration might have been pretty much aware of what was going on.

The US have made bitter sacrifices before to force their agenda.. so why not do it again.


I have a hard time to understand why conservative americans have so much faith in their government, their media, their oil and weapon industry..

sondance
Jan-16-2006, 23:07
Priest:
It may be if you took the time to get to know conservative Americans you could at least understand why you do not understand them. Do you want to understand them?

Priest
Jan-18-2006, 02:41
I am actually trying to understand why conservatives do believe in what they believe..

I think there's a cultural difference between Europe (especially Denmark) and the US. On the left-right wing scale in danish politics.. well your democrats are way further out on the right wing than any of our right wing parties.

So.. understanding is definately not easy.

Also.. I have a very hard time to understand why people can be partiotic about companies. In my point of view it seems sick.


I do agree that the world is not a simple place, so every kind of politic has its flaws, its pros and cons.

Priest
Jan-19-2006, 16:36
read this interview with Chomsky that I found quite interesting..

http://www.alternet.org/story/30487/

giovannimusica
Jan-19-2006, 18:35
Priest,

Here is a premise for you to contemplate - Countries that have had Monarchical rule have developed a cultural climate that is prone to *ostracise* those who do not conform to the status quo social order that has been engineered by bureacracy. The end result is a *monochromatic* society where there is little impetus for upsetting the apple-cart.

Insofar as the U.S. is concerned, it is a work-in-progress since it is a nation of immigrants. You also have to take into account that there is a constant balancing act beween the Federal Government and the individual States, each with their own competing agenda. Just these two facts alone provide one with a clue as to the dynamic forces at work which change the political landscape and conribute to the dynamism that is the U.S.A.

Granted, there are many other variables too numerous to go into here on MIMF but what does help is to read-up on U.S. Constitutional History. The same goes for coming to terms with other Countries. Read-up on their History and form of Governance.

Let me close with a suggestion for you to get a copy of the book entitled *The Heritage Guide To The Constitution* by Meese, Spalding and Forte. It will help immeasurably in beginning to understand the American Political System. Of course, I could also suggest you to acquire Constitutional Law published by WestLaw.

Cheers,

Giovanni https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif

giovannimusica
Jan-20-2006, 19:23
Priest,

Here's an article for you and others who might be interested to ponder and reflect on:

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=011906G


Cheers,

Giovanni https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif

Priest
Jan-21-2006, 04:24
First.. thanks for the recommendations. I always enjoy looking into as much as possible. I'm not sucking in one-way litterature in general.. I read everything from socialist to nationalistic litterature, to religous to.. whatever I come by.. so yeah.. might take a deeper look into the heritage of your constitution.

second. I read the article.. and indeed it offers a paradox.. several indeed. First off.. I would like to remind you the fact that the US condems Iraq's use of torture or.. shall we call it hars interrogation methods. So how can a country condemn the methods of another countries methods and using the same relation of methods themselves? That I don't understand. Do you see the double moral? As well as blaiming another country for having weapons of mass destruction when there is no other country have an arsenal as big as the one that you guys have. Also the US feels inclined to actually use nuclear warfare for combatting rouge states that represent an agenda that is different from the ones you have. Is the US path more rightous than Irans? As I see it the US has coursed far more trouble to the world, both political and environmental than other countries have.

I kinda can't help think who is the biggest terrorist nation.

I know it is impossible to be a superpower without stepping upon others. Critical measures have to be taken.. indeed.

Also.. I do believe that the US is far from actually helping against this so-called islamic terrorist thread.. they are making it worse. Problem is as far as I see it, that new fault lines are needed. After Soviet crashed the US was without a proper enemy and the fact that there was a threat in a gathered arab nation.. well.. the middle east was indeed a glorious battle field to try to take hold off.. or at least make the best out of the fact that it shouldn't be too strong. Imagine what it would be like. Them setting the prizes of the oil. Pretty damn bad for US economy. France, Germany and Russia were trying to lift UN restrictions, so they could rebuild iraqi oil fields. Indeed lucrid contracts. I don't say that the agenda of the 3 before mentioned was any more rightous. Far from.. I'm not defending them. They are just as bad as every other nations in the world.

It is a big game to keep in power.. and measures have to be taken indeed.

Anyhow.. what I'm trying to say is. I don't think the terrorist threat was that big a deal, but the idea of someone else being able to take these lucrid contracts was a big big deal and provoking an actual terror threat was worth it, so neither the arab countries or european/russian companies might sit with these contracts.. well.. the terror threat was way easier to cope with.

As far as I see it.

Check out neoconservative litterature.. these things are no secret.. check for an example works of .. I think he is called Brezinski.. wrote the Grand Chessboard. Only have time to read parts of it.


Also I think that this whole charade is promoting a problem that just grows and grows. Sooner or later we are going to have a big divide and we are going to feel it even here in Europe. I'm pretty sure that we're going to see a civil war here in EU between white and arabs. Fools enough on both sides. The US led "crusade" is a catalyst.



But before you see me as only an anti-american.. Let me tell you about my over all opinion. Our world is filled with idiots. A lot of them are in power. Companies have gotten far too big. The human race contains a load of morons and they are currently f*****g up our world. They come in all shapes, sizes, colors and extremist points of views, wether that be neoconservatives, islamists, communists etc.

I do believe the whole will be going down within the next few decades.. the world does once in awhile and I do regret that I have to behold it. It will rebuild itself again until some new conflict does the same kinda thing and in this unfortunate way we will go on.. propably until eternity.

You are part of the problem, I am part of the problem. We all are. We are 6 billion problems walking around on the soil of Mother Earth.. and we are all pissing on her. It is a big urination contest. Everyone claiming we are the one who has a way/government/religion that can piss the longest.

I'm not sorry for the people who die in terrorist attacks, nature catastrophes, wars etc.. I'm sorry for what is happening to the air we breathe, the forests, the oceans and so on.

We are acting like we are being invited into someones house and starts smashing the furniture, taking a dump in the aircondition, urinating on the carpets and eating all the food in the fridge. Until there is nothing left.. or we hopefully find a technology that can clean up after us.

If you ask me.. we don't prove the worth to be here in the first place.

giovannimusica
Jan-22-2006, 20:11
Thanx for sharing your Weltanschauung - I really appreciate it https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Giovanni

Priest
Feb-07-2006, 19:27
interesting read.

http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/bible/historical-construction/

giovannimusica
Feb-07-2006, 22:29
Hello all,

With the 2006 elections just around the corner and every body thinking about Hillary Clinton, here's one for the hall of fame:

http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/29/att15tj.jpg


Cheers,

Giovanni https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tiphat.gif

Gareth
Feb-08-2006, 12:18
Been surfing again Giovanni?

Nice.

Gareth.

prokop
Feb-08-2006, 16:22
So what is the take on Hillary ? .. Is she going to run? Does she stand a chance ? Anybodu has been following this ?

I hope that she's going to run on a bolivarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarian_Revolution) platform https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

giovannimusica
Feb-08-2006, 18:33
Conventional wisdom has it that Condi Rice will be *drafted* to run for President in '08 and will collect most of the Afro-American vote thereby inoculating America against the *Bolivarian* disease and causing the democrat party to implode.

giovannimusica
Feb-08-2006, 18:42
Hi gareth,

There is always something *out there* to reel in https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hey, let us remember our Brothers and Sisters in Denmark during this trying time.

If, as the radical Islamists say that a European 9/11 is on it's way then all bets are off.

The line will have been crossed.


Giovanni https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tiphat.gif

prokop
Feb-08-2006, 20:28
That's a nice thought gio, thanks a lot.

And while we are at it, let's also think of our brothers and sisters in the Middle East. Idiots are many places and at large, let's hope that human understanding and peace trancends aggression, be it islamic, christian, fascist or hegemonian.

Priest
Feb-09-2006, 13:46
what are you saying Gio.. that there are going to be american-election-bitch-fight in ´08?

Gareth
Feb-09-2006, 15:52
Oooo, which could turn out to be nasty in the end.....Racism and stuff like that could come into play possibly.....

The same sort of thing happened in the 1994 elections in South Africa, but little do people know that Nelson Mandela (elected president at the time who was imprisoned in the 80's) had great connections with communism and is basically like a terrorist on his own, as my Father fought in the Border War in the 1970's to stop communism spreading to Several parts of Africa. African's were allowed to vote for the first time and they now currently vote for the African National Congress (which is communism group that my father fought against).

Today to elect another party would be impossible as about 70% of votes go into the ANC (as of most of the population being dark skinned) compared to it's rival which gets about 25%.

Africa as I see it today with all it's problems and in Zimbabwe, it won't suprise me if they get terrorist groups starting in there.

I have lived in South Africa from when I was born until I was 12 years old, I have been living here in Australia for 3 years and 2 months. Try having to live in Houses with alarms in them, high walls, electric fences, and barbed wire fences, both of my neighbours got robbed, people loitering around street corners, the banks there....there is bulletproof glass between you and the bank worker, Guards with AK 47 Assualt rifles standing outside shopping centers and so many more, I would be sitting here for ages if I did name some more....

Anyway enough of my life experiences...those are just common factors of normal daily life in South Africa.

Giovanni, what do you mean by Remember our Brothers and Sisters in Denmark?? There must be something I missed.

https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers444.gifGareth.

giovannimusica
Feb-09-2006, 18:47
Hi priest,

I don't know about bitch fight but if Condi Rice is *drafted* it will be a *take no hostages* fight.

Giovanni https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tiphat.gif

giovannimusica
Feb-09-2006, 18:52
Hi gareth,

I believe it is important that our Brothers and Sisters in Denmark need our prayers during this onslaught of radical Islam asserting itself against Europe in general and Denmark in particular.

Cheers,

Giovanni https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tiphat.gif

prokop
Feb-09-2006, 19:38
Are you serious about calling the bolivarian movement a disease and if that is the case, could you elaborate why Gio ?

In my view the attack is healthy for our democracy, as our core values are challenged. It's going to be interesting to follow the outcome of all this.

giovannimusica
Feb-09-2006, 21:01
Hi prokop,

If you were in Venezuela and got to experience Chavez's shock-troops going door -to-door in the middle of the night, draggging out the occupants and making them disappear, never to be heard from again, I'm sure you would revise your take on the attack on our democracy. Be happy that you live in such a free society as you do.

Cheers,

Giovanni https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif

Gareth
Feb-10-2006, 03:30
I have never heard of such things, thats why I think Australia is the best place to live in the world. Islam has been changed around though, there was this person in the 1950's who had an idea, and he spread it, saw it on a documentary, basically it was saying that Islam has been changed, it all started in Egypt, and this guy's hatred for western countries, and obviously Christianity is the most widespread religion in Western Countries, so they are targeting that.

prokop
Feb-10-2006, 14:23
Well gio, I try to be no fool and I have lived under communist opression so I'm no socialistic utopist either.
--

Your accusations of Mr. Chavez is a postulate, I would be most interested in reading your sources. I know that I'm not allknowing on the Venezuelan situation, but from what I read is that Chavez is twice democratically elected, survived 7 referendums against his goverment or constitutional changes and two millitary coups with strong US involvement.

Amnesty International's reports (http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-ven/index) on Venezuela has a great deal of listings on death threats/fear of safety, objections of allowing international rights organizations to work freely in Venezuela but nothing as drastic as your mentionend death squads.

As comparison, see Amnestys US (http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-usa/index) page where well documented cases of everything from execution of mentally ill to sanctioned torture appears.

I understand that Mr. Chavez is implementing certain sympatic things for his 80% poor population such as free health and dental system, price control on most consumed food items, _eliminated_ illeteracy in Venezuela, built tens of thounsands high schools and provided free education up to and through university level. He has the luxury of holding the highest approval rating in all of the americas of 70.5% (Dow Jones (http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/venezuela/3036.html)) You must agree that the pattern of strenghtening a total population by education is not desirable by any repression-based system.

I read also that in Venezuela the economy grew by 17% in 2004 and over 9% (quarter over quarter) in the first 9 months of 2005. This was the fastest growth in the hemisphere.
--

I therefore do not understand your hostile attitude towards the current Venezuelan goverment, as it from an humanitarian point seems to help a great deal of poor people in one of the worlds oilrichest countries. I realize that nothing is ever perfect, but it surely seems like a positive development?

I'm glad we have this opportunity to discuss Venezuela as I'm always interested in learning more about the current state of the world. I looking forwards to your reply.

giovannimusica
Feb-10-2006, 20:46
Hi prokop,

You seem to be a knowledgeable individual and a good sport to boot and I laud that.

However, I see that we are on different wavelengths already. The developing situations in South America preclude quick analysis and massmedia hyperspeculation.

Rather than entering into a dead-end, take no hostages discussion with you, I respectfully decline further exchange about the Venezuelan situation.

Cheers,

Giovanni https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tiphat.gif

Kromme
Jan-30-2007, 13:15
I have never heard of such things, thats why I think Australia is the best place to live in the world. Islam has been changed around though, there was this person in the 1950's who had an idea, and he spread it, saw it on a documentary, basically it was saying that Islam has been changed, it all started in Egypt, and this guy's hatred for western countries, and obviously Christianity is the most widespread religion in Western Countries, so they are targeting that.
Gareth,i must say that for a Muslim a Christian is a brother or a sister compared to a Jew.Most of the time their reasons to be angry with Christians is their belief that Christians are used by Jews in their dirty business according to their "Jew rules everything." theory.

I must agree with you about threats brought by radical Islam.Threat is growing.One of the most democratic countries with a vast majority of people being Muslims is my country Turkey and i must say we are on the verge of losing our freedom of belief.Current cabinet is consisted of people who want the country to be governed by religious rules and principles of Qur'an.Presidents tenure is coming to an end.He was the one who is defending democracy and freedom of belief for this time.The prime minister is more than likely to become new president and he will unite these positions into a presidency like presidency of G.W.Bush or presidency of Adolf Hitler with every right on everyones life and he will become the president of religion based country of Turkey.The name of our country will not be Turkish Republic anymore but Turkish Islamic Republic just like Iran.Then U.S. will try to bring democracy to us just like they did to Afghanistan,Iraq and also Vietnam.

For conspiracy theories about U.S government and 9/11 you may check out this link:Loose Change 2nd Edition - Türkçe altyazılı, Turkish subtitled - Google Video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1801080583461721459&q=label%3Aya%C5%9Fas%C4%B1n+kafirler+i%C3%A7in+ceh ennem)

Sybarite
Feb-02-2007, 00:47
I'm delighted to report that, in the UK we have just fought off an assault by fundamentalist Christians to gain exemption from the law and be allowed to discriminate against homosexuals in service provision.

And this despite attempted blackmail by the head of the Roman Catholic church in England and Wales, and the best efforts of Tony Blair's religious mafia.

Fundamentalism exists in all religions. And it would be a mistake to forget that and only concentrate on part of the problem.

Perhaps one day we really will, to borrow from Nietzsche, 'kill God'.

As John Lennon said: "Imagine..."

FKA1
Feb-27-2007, 01:26
Am I the only American to post on this thread?
Interesting reading 2 years of posts, seeing the
developments unfold.

BTW-Giovanni- It's the Democratic Party.
That's a sore spot, originated as a slam by McCarthy
in the 50s, further developed by Newt Gingrich.

Changes are coming rapidly in the US, so much so,
that's sometimes it's difficult to convey.

As to the original question posed by the thread starter-
I wouldn't put it past the Bush Junta to be the causeof
another "terrorist" attack, to declare martial law, suspend
elections.
Many in the US (around 25%) are now convinced that
the administration at least allowed 9/11 to happen.
Personally, i find it incredulous that anyone believes
a few lessons on a small aircraft (Cessna) would allow a person
to fly a jumbo airliner, let alone accurately enough to use it
as a missle.
For further reading on the subject, here's a link to an
organization of commercial pilots that find it hard to believe also.
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/ (http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/)

P e a c e
Kirk/FKA1

Sybarite
Feb-27-2007, 15:07
... As to the original question posed by the thread starter-
I wouldn't put it past the Bush Junta to be the causeof
another "terrorist" attack, to declare martial law, suspend
elections.
Many in the US (around 25%) are now convinced that
the administration at least allowed 9/11 to happen.
Personally, i find it incredulous that anyone believes
a few lessons on a small aircraft (Cessna) would allow a person
to fly a jumbo airliner, let alone accurately enough to use it
as a missle.
For further reading on the subject, here's a link to an
organization of commercial pilots that find it hard to believe also.
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/ (http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/)

P e a c e
Kirk/FKA1


FKA1, in my opinion, the biggest question at present is how much Bush is posturing over Iran and how likely he really is to order some form of an attack on that country.

FKA1
Feb-27-2007, 20:09
FKA1, in my opinion, the biggest question at present is how much Bush is posturing over Iran and how likely he really is to order some form of an attack on that country.

Hi Sybarite-
I agree, that is the issue du jour.
The underlying issue for the US, is Bush and Dick
assuming presidential powers that aren't in place,
such as the ability to wage war w/o Congressional approval.

I was addressing the original question from post 1-
"What measure would a regime be willing to take to stay in power?"

If we could link the admin to impeachable offenses and/or
criminal actions, such as "parting the waves" for the 9/11 terrorists,
then Iran being attacked, the escalation in Iraq is no longer an issue.

IMO-These are some very bad people that've seized office.
Even the Republican party doesn't deserve them.
Do a Google on "Straussians" or Leo Strauss if you're not
familiar w/ the term.

Kirk/FKA1

Stronghold
Apr-09-2007, 23:30
Wow some intristing comentary I will say this thread seems vary politically driven I am hearing a single word alot latey thees days though and I belive their is some truth to it and that is (balance) are the lack of and your right on a few points I just picked a few but first I have a few questons maby some one can awnser for me because I believe it ties into all of this misguided train wreck.


(America) land of the free and milk and hony ?

How many countrys other than americia give as much money and aid to poverished nations than we do? I would like some numbers on this on how much we have given compaired to other nations for one and for two why hasent it done any good and I need a better awnser than it was spent by a bad seed in leadership meaning dictator are drug loards ect.


Why is that important ?

Well countrys that deny financial gain for their peoples we should not deall with period in any way that will force theem to fight it out to battle for a better life just like we did here in Americia.

We have had the capability to run are aconomy with vary little usage of Oil for years why arnt we doing that ? during world war 1 and 2 are nation stood hand in hand together men and woman working in metal shops building tanks that were ordinary people off the streets.

Why cant we do the same and build hybrid cars for everyone at a low cost in the end it will be cheaper than war and political kickbacks for corupt nations who suck the life out of are great nation.


Never fall in love with a politition well I agree fall in love with people the problems in the intire world are happening because of a toatle lack of love and respect for eachother and that is a fact no matter what level of disputed situations cause a problem.

Example Cia contibutes arms to fuel a koo ect.

Coruption is every ware if you think its not than you are a fool

All im saying on that point is if you do not have a reason to make a choice that will harm you latter on than there is no issue at all.

Hate comes in manny forms and is driven by madness - Soicial presure,Inviornmentel climate,Continental prosperity,Opresion of peoples, basic necesitys of life food and shelter ect. .


What is a simple and great saying God helps thoughs that help theem selfs well if you have a problem with saying the word God than replace it with Love.

And you can see a message of love vary plainly as aposed to a message of evill


That to me is the ballance in a simple form you can coplicate the message with an incredibal amount of facts to get lost in are you can just open up your eyes and look around you and no that this world is dying and it seems that only two countrys the US and UK are putting in resorces to save it.

Now the question I would like to hear are (solution ) is how do we do that with the formost thought being that of a peacfull solution to put out a furnace of fire.

You said boms dont work and bullets I completly agree what would work?


Dealing only with countrys that only treat their own people well and have a stable governmental chain?


Well we have that and I personally feall we are opressed in are own county but what seperates us from the rest of the world is the fact that we can change laws and even revers laws on the books to restor a since of ballance.

And that is the only reason America works at all as a nation if we loose are ballance of fair play and love and respect for the constitution and peoples freedoms and ideals than we have lost as a human race to grow up beyond are own slefishness and understanding of are own personal growth as a peoples.


We need solutions as aposed to getting lost in a maze of he said she said world of politics.

Just my openion take care all.;)

Sybarite
Apr-24-2007, 20:54
... How many countrys other than americia give as much money and aid to poverished nations than we do? ...

Per head of population, quite a few.

Stats from 2002 (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930884.html).

In 2002 (http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/headlines04/1231-01.htm), Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Japan, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and the UK.

And the stats for 2006 (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_eco_aid_don_percap-economic-aid-donor-per-capita).

doctortornface
Jul-09-2007, 10:51
One just needs to ask Kofi Annan where the *Mercedes* is and then you'll find out how corrupt the UN is. How can one possibly defend an organization whose blue-helmeted soldiers raped thousands of seven-year old girls in Liberia or did nothing to stop the slaughter of a million people when the Hutus and the Tutsi's when berserk???

Time has come to cut down the UN, commit it to the fiery furnace and create a body called the League of Democracies where all members come from democratically elected governments.

Giovanni
Giovanni, where on earth do you get your so called facts? There is more fiction in any of your posts than my local Library,You state rightly about hutus and tutsis,but then slip in abject nonsense like and they raped thousannds of 7 year old girls....was it only seven year olds were 8,9,10 year olds safe and what about 4,5,6,...or 20,18's etc....rape is a terrible thing in any circumstance and you make a mockery of it by talking drivel with your so called facts.
The thing about conspiracy theories is,that it would be a great way for a world wide crime web like S.M.E.R.S.H. to hide it real intentions.Because afterall if it isn't the American govmt. it must be someone...... a serious subject brought to it's knees by unsubstansiated rumours and makebelieve.For goodness sake things are bad enough with out inventing ****....sorry rant over....unless Giovanni starts again....the Americans probably blew up the twin towers themselves just to keep power...yes and my great uncle Bob drove a 4x4 into Glasgow Airport to publicise his chippy.....