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cone chests?

Drinklicafix

New member
Hello,
Could anyone please tell me exactly how a cone chest works? According to what I have read in this forum, the entire stop speaks when the key is pressed. Doesn't seem correct to me, maybe I misunderstood. Please explain.
Regards & thanks,:tiphat:
Akash
 

Hildegard

New member
Hi!
I know a bit about pipe organs but I'm not familiar with the english terms.:confused:
Could you explain the word "cone chest"? Never heard about it. Do you have a french or german term for it?

Cheers
Hildegard
 

Drinklicafix

New member
Hi,
Thanks for the quick replies.
I had a look at the pdf and found the drawings on cone chests hard to follow. I understood with the help of these 2 drawings.
What I understand is that when the Relaisventil cone is lifted by the key, all the Spielventil cones lift. The stops that speak depends on which Registerkanzelle has wind. Please tell me if I'm wrong.
I don't understand what difference this mechanism makes to the sound and what advantage it has, if any, over the slider chest. Cone chests just seem more complicated.
Cheers & Thanks:cheers:
Akash:)

Kegellade_m_1.jpg


elektropneumatik.gif
 

giovannimusica

Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Hello Drinklicafix,

Cone chests, Slider chests, Purse chests or other types of chests are really not responsible for any specific sound reproduction. It is another system that can be built to satisfy a musical requirement. Having played on many instruments, each with their own type of chests, I am not so concerned with the chest type as I am with the composition of the organ and how it interacts with the space in which it is situated.

Remember, the most important stop in the organ is the acoustic. My observation: Don't get hung up chest minutiae. The character and color of the individual stops and how they are *fitted* to the space is more important - if you are a competent organist you will really make beautiful music with an instrument that blends in with the space.

Just take for example the Organ at St. Sulpice in Paris - the color components it produces dazzle the mind - a testament to the organbuilders skill and the gracious acoustic it is situated in.

Cheers,

Giovanni :tiphat:
 

Drinklicafix

New member
thanks

Hi giovannimusica,
Thanks a lot for making things clear. I had the impression that the cone chest has an effect on the way the pipe makes its sound.
Cheers,
Drinklicafix
 

Hildegard

New member
Thanks Gio for the german term.. :)

Hi Askash! :)
In the late 19th century this kind of chest actually were a lot more simple than the Schleiflade (slider chest). The Schleiflade had many problems with heating in the churches which caused moisture and the slider chest simply couldn't cope with it. The cone chest didn't have the same problmes and therefore became very popular and used.

But it has many disadvantage. Some cone chests is very noisy because all stops are active even when playing on a single stop. This has been removed with some other variations.
The great artistically disadvantage of the cone chest is it's bad couple of the acoustics. It has a hard sound, a inaccurate mechanism and a bad validity.

Cheers :cheers:
Hildegard
 

acc

Member
Here is a comparison (with pictures) between several types of windchests.

As for influence on sound, I guess it's mainly due to the difference between stop grooves (Registerkanzellen) vs. tone grooves (Tonkanzellen), rather than cones vs. sliders.
 
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giovannimusica

Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Hi Akash,

I must apologise for not recommending you to look into borrowing from a library or purchasing G. Ashdown Audsley's book on *The Art Of Organ Building.* It will give you a good understanding about organbuilding. Get also a copy of *Organ stops and their artistic registration: names, forms, construction, tonalities, and offices in scientific combination.* The second book is also by Audsley.

Here's a link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/07...5579-9592156?_encoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

Cheers,

Giovanni :tiphat:
 

acc

Member
Hildegard said:
The great artistically disadvantage of the cone chest is it's bad couple of the acoustics. It has a hard sound, a inaccurate mechanism and a bad validity.
Hi Hildegard!

What do you mean by a "hard sound"? I've listened quite a lot to those Walckers and Sauers and absolutely love them! I find this organ, for example, to be incredibly soft and refined.

About the "inaccurate mechanism": do you refer to the cone chests themselves, or to the tubular-pneumatic transmission they were frequently associated with in the later 19th century?
 

Hildegard

New member
Hi Acc!

Sorry I'm not very familiar with the english terms. :eek: The tubular-pneumatic transmission? Do you have the german or french term for it? ;)

The "inaccurate mechanism" refers to the Taschenlade or Membranenlade.

Cheers
Hildegard :angel:
 

Hildegard

New member
Thank you again, Giovanni, for translating it into german. :eek: Wouldn't it just be great if we had some international organ terms? :grin: I can't stop getting confused all the time!!

acc, I talked about a Kegellade in a pneumatic organ.

Cheers
Hildegard
 

acc

Member
Do you know Wilfried Praet's organ dictionary? I find it to be an invaluable tool in any translation issues.

As for cone chests (Kegelladen), would you still consider them to be inaccurate when the transmission is purely mechanical (as in many smaller instruments by E.F.Walcker), rather than pneumatic?
 

acc

Member
Ah! Now I begin to understand. So when you expressed reservations, it was really about pneumatic transmission, not about cone chests. Transmission (of the action from the keys to the chest) and chest design (cones vs. sliders, tone grooves vs. stop grooves, etc.) are two independent things.

Fair enough - although there are good and bad pneumatic transmissions, just as there are good and bad mechanical transmissions.
 

Thomas Dressler

New member
I saw this thread start just as I was dealing with yet another crisis. . .I'm glad to see a nice discussion came of it, because I thought it was an interesting question.

For those who are not organists and familiar with playing on different actions, I'd point out that different kinds of actions do often have a subtle effect on your music making. It is true that the sustained part of pipe sound does not vary (too much, though it can) from one action to another, the expressive part of pipe sound is its initial attack, and somewhat, its release. This is especially true in the case of instruments voiced in pre-19th century style, but is true even of Romantic instruments.

A well regulated mechanical action organ which is voiced sympathetically is quite sensitive to an organist's touch. Because the organist makes a direct kind of contact with the pallets under the pipes, the faster a key is pressed, the faster the pallet opens and often the more chiff there is in the attack. It takes some skill and practice to master this very subtle effect, and organists who are not trained or do not practice on mechanical instruments have trouble mastering it. Some mechanical instruments are so sensitive that playing with the fingers held above the keys and then striking the notes as with piano touch causes pretty bad pipe speech. These same things are true to some extent with how the pallets CLOSE. I fast release produces and ugly "thwap." This aspect of mechanical action technique is more subtle than the attack, and I believe takes more time to master.

When it comes to other types of action, the organist is relinquishing control of the initial pipe speech and the release to a mechanical device, with the trade off that it is easier to play large instruments which take a lot of energy to play if they are mechanical. It is true that there are good and bad examples of all of these kinds of actions, but it's also true that they do have certain characteristics in general. A sensitive organist, especially one who is accustomed to mechanical action, will tend to have preferences based on how particular actions tend to attack and release the sound. My personal opinion is that some electro-pneumatic actions are not too bad in this regard. I grew up playing tubular pneumatic instruments that were abominable, though I do know of one in Brooklyn that plays exceptionally well--it's reliable, and its attacks and releases are nicer than on any electro-pneumatic instruments I've played. The worst (in my opinion) but also the simplist is the direct electric action because the pallets are placed directly beneath the pipe toes. The pallets slam down quickly and the air puffs into the pipe in a hard manner that makes voicing difficult. Sometimes this issue is dealt with by increasing the thickness of the toeboard, and I have played one or two instruments that don't sound too bad, but this option is expensive and takes away from the most appealing aspect of direct electric action--it's cheaper, simpler, and allows a lot of flexibility in how the pipes are arranged. However, I'd say it has so many drawbacks that I have not heard many that I like.

As to cone action, that is very rare here in the US, and I have never played one. I've always been very curious about how they affect the playing of the instruments, how they feel under the organist's fingers, and what their musical effect is like.
 
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