PDA

View Full Version : 3d film about the neoCon admistration



Priest
Nov-04-2004, 13:46
during the sad time where Bush unfortunately has been reelected.. I'll post this little nice and well made baby

check it

http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/whatbarrysays

PhotoFixer3
Nov-11-2004, 17:21
I can't believe you people in Europe hate America so much, maybe you wish you were still under the thumb of the Nazi's? It's veterans day. My grandfather faught in WWII so Europe could be free... Maybe Old Europe needs to shut their mouths, because we know whats good for them.... Just look at the Netherlands, the headcutters/terrorists or now killing people there, Van Gogh.... I guess Europeans can be acused of having short memories...

corno
Nov-11-2004, 18:40
Do you normally generalise when you talk about/to people you don't know and haven't met?
Are we supposed to think that all americans have the same viewpoint as you?

Priest
Nov-11-2004, 19:00
I've heard this comment again and again. Let me remind you that US went against the nazis when they threatened american trade routes.

It would be sort of the same as blaming you for massacring the indians...

Times are changing. Do you think that it is without reason that something like 80-90 % of the rest of the worlds population actually is against Bush??

As long as the US won't agree on the suggestions of environmental issues as well as setting up an international court (ICC) then they shall not be the one that dictate the world.

US military has presence in 3/4 of all countries world wide. This doesn't make people happy. Currently they are doing a good time pissing people of. Actions in the middle east during the last 30 years haven't been nice, and haven't done the slightest to increase world stability... more the opposite.

Before you speak up. Take a look at which kind of people your administration are put together of, as well as the neo conservative think tank.. and as well look upon which companies that are supporting your government!

The Think tank is basically sponsored by companies like Carlyle Group, also called the ex-presidents club. Consisting of, for an example Bush Sr. One of the largest ventures of Carlyle is United Defence, that in itself is consisting of a long range of weapon manufactorers.

These companies, listing a long list.. have interest in supporting your government.. hence in this case.. the re-election of Bush. It is like investing in stocks.. they put money in the president.. they want something in return... for an example oil-field contracts.

I don't claim to you that the European Union, is a circle of angels. Not the slightest. The Union is far from holy.. the actions are just way more obscure. Before the invasion of Iraq.. French, German and Russian oil companies were trying to soften UN regulations, so they could get the chance to rebuild iraquian oil fields. This of course, the US was not interested in, and the US had the possibility to launch an assault.

"Democracy" is a franchise.. take neocon writer and member of think tank, Francis Fukuyama. His idea of world peace comes in spreading capitalistic democracy, entangling all countries in free markets, so the possibility of warfare gets way more difficult. Problem is that you are moving fault lines, to within each system itself. Not between nations, but between those who have economy and those who don't (read: Charles Kupchan, The End of the American Era)


Also.. when we are at the neoconservatives... Zbigniew Brzezinski's book 'The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and its Geostrategic Imperatives'

Brzezinski is also member of the thinktank, functions as a consultant for a lot of larger companies.. in The Grand Chessboard, he writes about the value and need for a largescale action (like sep 9.11) to make a complete change in american politics.. this book was written in 1998.. you might find it being interesting reading.



To Europe... the murder of Theo van Gogh... well.. we do have radical movements in Europe.. but what are you actually trying to say? that all muslims are militant radical and should be wiped out?

Are you claiming that america is free of radical right-wing extremists? I don't really get your point here? I don't see what this have to do with anything?


Also.. we, and here I'm talking about the whole west.. both US and EU.. we are benifitting from keeping other countries economies down.. in search for finding cheaper manufacturers. Each day thousands of people are killed, so we can get cheap shoes from Nike, crap gadgets made in China etc..

the biggest [censored] terrorist here in the world is our consumer mentality... do you really think that we can suppress the most of the world without them getting pissed?

Do you think that people gets cheerful when US goes on bombing campaigns?

Do you think that south east asia is going to be delightes that the US is building the largest military airbase (General Santoz) in Mindanao, Philipines, so it is possible to make a total airstrike mobilisation in one day to hit, China, Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Indonesia, Philipines or whatever...?


... and before you start talking about history.. remember that it was your own tax money you got directly back in the face sep 9.11..

Nalia
Nov-11-2004, 19:07
Bravo https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/box2.gif

Priest
Nov-11-2004, 19:20
btw. PhotoFixer3 i googled you... and I'm sorry to say.. but you are an idiot. Trying to have political discussion wether or not Arafat is gay at the "free republic" website.

Come on.. if you want to debate politics.. stop throwing ******** around you.. read up on your homework instead of being a redneck loser, and then come back and post some..

It is your kind of types that makes people in the rest of the world anti-american..

I think this is a shame.. because I know a lot of american people I really like.. claiming that everybody from the US is morons, just because of an argument with you is the same as claiming that all arab people are terrorists..

Frederik Magle
Nov-11-2004, 19:37
OK, people, don't force me to lock this thread!

Although I very strongly disagrees with Photofixer's generalization about European people and sentiment, don't resort to adhoms, Priest. Calling Photofixer degeratory names is not anymore serious political discussion than what you accuse Photofixer of!! Don't do that again on MIMF.dk.

Everybody please read, or re-read, the posting guidelines (http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/information-announcements/announcement-posting-guidelines-rules.html) before continuing this thread.

Priest
Nov-11-2004, 19:54
sorry.. I'll try to be more gentle next time..

PhotoFixer3
Nov-12-2004, 04:28
The International Crimal Court? Why should Americans be subjected and tried by terrorist states like the Sudan and Iran? Have you heard of the oil for food scandal?

PhotoFixer3
Nov-12-2004, 04:42
I want you to go watch the DOCUMENTARY WMD – The Murderous Reign of Saddam Hussein.... It was created by a man from Iraq. Then you will see why we are there and why the people of Iraq are happy Saddam is gone...

http://www.christiancinema.com/catalog/images/wmd.news.jpg

PhotoFixer3
Nov-12-2004, 04:53
Priest you think Arafat is a nice guy you take a look at this guy and tell me if he wants peace...

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041111/capt.akcf12111111943.mideast_palestinians_arafat_a kcf121.jpg

Priest
Nov-12-2004, 14:15
though I will put a strong question to the fact that Iraq had WMD (except from the ones that was granted to them by US in the first place)... we can both agree that Saddam wasn't mister Nice Guy.

Personally I am not against war if the war is rightous.. but the american invasion of Iraq was outright stupid. Let me explain...

Due to american-israelian alliance as well as US oil interests in the Middle East, the relationship between middle east and US is not only a little tense but very much indeed.

With a republican government as spearhead in America.. and you know how much religion matter in the US.. see for an example the current election where Bush got re-elected merely on stating his love to God. ( I could go on with a whole other discussion on the paradox this present and state that the guy is far more Antichrist than representing God.. but that must be another discussion).

Anyway... US is religious.. they walk in on islamic soil.. this is bad. The war becomes twisted into being economic/religious interests confronting religion. This is dangerous.

Take a look at the Palestinian-Israelian conflict.. religious conflicts just don't settle.. they spread.. filling hearts all over the globe with spite.

I know UN is working slow sometimes.. it is.

But US going around the UN.. then they are to blame for each of their own soldiers who die. There's way to much to raise question about in this invasion. It is not without reason that some of the camps are named after oil companies.. come on.. Camp Halliburton.. give me a [censored] break here, and don't whine about liberation.

Taking over Iraq was pretty easy. But.. the US haven't really thought it through.. or else they didn't really care.. Oil is far more worth than lifes. Even before the invasion Paul Bremer said that as long as there was US presence in Iraq, there would be critical elements. Basically I don't even think that your own administration believed in it.. according Brzezinski.. invasion of Iraq would be a statement towards Syria and Iran.

But how much does this statement work, when everything is going bad?

Doesn't it only further destabilization of the world?

I have several friends that was in Iraq with AMF (armed mobile forces). Between british and danish soldiers the US soldiers were a joke. Their fire power being effective enough.. no doubt there.. but platoon after platoon of trigger happy psychos. Their whole war discipline working like ****. How do you explain to people that you are there to liberate them, when things actually get worse after you enter.

Conclusions.. yes... there's reasons to wipe out Saddam.. but do it in a proper way. Don't be nationalistic towards the values of larger corporations. That is just plain stupid. They care about profit.. not about liberation of anybody, not of your values or anybody elses.. just profit. Can you be any means explain to me why Shell, Exxon, Halliburton etc.. should really care about you?

Two more thing.. before you stand in line to hail to the chimp. First: consider 2 words... propaganda and indoctrination... if they want you to do something, they will make you believe it is the right thing. Second... while you recommend me this movie, and I will try to see if I can find it.. then I will recommend you to watch an old nazi propaganda video by Lena Riefenstahl called Triumph des Willes. See all the soldiers lined up in front of the Führer.. proud.. see the smiles on their faces. Think of that before you stand in line https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



About Arafat. I have some israelian friends I'd been discussing this with a lot. If you want to do something about the israelian-palistinian conflict.. you have to remove both Yassir Arafat and Ariel Sharon. They don't contribute with anything except hatred. They know nothing else than war.

What I wrote to you earlier was not a defending of Arafat.. it was just the fact that I proclaimed that your way of debating was low..

Remember that Ariel Sharon is not a nice guy.. he actually got thrown out of the israelian military for being to radical in his measures.. don't ask me how the guy made it as president. Remember a thing like the 7 days conflict.. bloody [censored] mess where Sharon was in charge of hiring mercenaries to go rampage in palestinian prison camps, so Israel themselves wouldn't get dirty hands...

PhotoFixer3
Nov-12-2004, 23:10
First of all, The US Military is the best in the world. IF the War was over OIL why are oil prices still so high if we were there to just steal their oil? Iraq's Oil is being used to reconstruct their country, along with Billions of US Tax Payers Dollars. How much has your Country pledged to rebuild Iraq? Are you people racists that believe Arabs can not live in a democracy? We here in America believe people should be FREE and that people should govern themselves, we are making sacrifices so the Iraqi people can do just that. I feel you have a very twisted sense of America, and you listen to wacked out people who match your hatred, and pull sound bytes off other people to make your point. Come to America, mingle with the people, you will find those who agree totally with you and others that DO NOT. My invitation come to America the land of the free, home of the brave... https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Nalia
Nov-12-2004, 23:35
Eehhhmmm Denmark has soldiers in Iraq too! If the US is so great, why ask for help?

The $ is very very low because of Bush’s politic and that costs jobs in the U.S.

Think I will let Priest try to explain, why 79% would have voted for Kerry and only 7 % for Bush in DK.

http://sorryeverybody.com/

PhotoFixer3
Nov-12-2004, 23:52
Denmark does NOT vote for the American President! LOL... IF your country was not socialist maybe your economy would be better...

PhotoFixer3
Nov-12-2004, 23:59
Denmark has soldiers in Iraq too!



And we thank you for the support! We ask for help so people like Priest wont say we are "going it alone" or "taking over other countries" Thanks to Denmark for their sacrifices along with the 30 or so other nations with us... Great Britain, Australia, Poland
and others...

PhotoFixer3
Nov-13-2004, 04:45
hey Priest DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH ABOUT WHAT I SAID ABOUT ARAFAT. On Free Republic I said, that I heard on the radio that he had AIDS... now look at the Liberal New York Times
Click here to read the Article Priest! (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/11/12/90322.shtml)

PhotoFixer3
Nov-13-2004, 05:15
Or read this Priest
Click here for another article so you can get educated... (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41286)

Priest
Nov-13-2004, 12:06
I only have time for a short reply.

First of. Danish economy is (compared to size of the country) one of the best economies in the world. Even if we are living in a sociodemocracy... and we don't have viking reservoirs and polar bears running free... ( wtf are you mistaking of us... )

I would even dare to say that our way of democracy is way more democratic than your capitalistic based ********... using a 1/4 of each election period on election propaganda.. this is just plain crazy.


Why the oil prizes are so high if this is about oil interests? Well.. the invasion is not going that well is it?

PhotoFixer3
Nov-13-2004, 12:33
Priest, i'm sorry.. I tried with you... gave you a decent chance, you have proven yourself to be an idiot... Iraq is Pumping out more oil now than pre-war levels... again when you don't have the facts you try and gloss over things... I know some freaky liberals like you... My advise, go see a shrink....

Priest
Nov-13-2004, 22:09
you tried what? Convincing me of your freaky ideals served to you by the government.. So I don't say.. whooops. Lets just change my fundament of how we view the whole world just because some guy shows me some pictures of palestinians with weapons in their hands and one of them is carrying a pic by Arafat...

Oil prices are high because the world is in a state of war. Because the OPEC countries is gaining from taking control of the oil prices..

The inflation of the oil prices actually started pretty much about 5 years ago. One of the main reasons is the rise of economy in asian countries. This evokes a higher demand of the dear black fluid.



If you think I am a freaky liberal... explaing some things to me rather than go state I am a dumbass..

PhotoFixer3
Nov-14-2004, 00:28
Also.. we, and here I'm talking about the whole west.. both US and EU.. we are benifitting from keeping other countries economies down.. in search for finding cheaper manufacturers. Each day thousands of people are killed, so we can get cheap shoes from Nike, crap gadgets made in China etc..


How do you like the American Processor(CPU) Inside your computer? Maybe you should tell the people of Dresden, Germany that work at AMD's FAB 30 that your sorry?
http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/cpu/amd/inside/dresden.jpg

PhotoFixer3
Nov-14-2004, 02:40
The Copenhagen Post (http://www.cphpost.dk/get/83552.html)
Maybe you like the fact that extremist applaud the violent murder of your countrymen?

corno
Nov-14-2004, 02:49
why should we like the fact that anyone should applaud a murder, violent or not?
whose contrymen are you referring to?
Theo van Gogh, mentioned in the article, was Dutch, not Danish!
Did you read the entire article?

PhotoFixer3
Nov-14-2004, 05:27
Also.. we, and here I'm talking about the whole west.. both US and EU.. we are benifitting from keeping other countries economies down.. in search for finding cheaper manufacturers. Each day thousands of people are killed, so we can get cheap shoes from Nike, crap gadgets made in China etc..


Again in the words of "Priest" he has compared Europe to the United States, like it or not Theo van Gogh, is your blood. I was born in Indiana and now live in Minnesota, that would be like me saying the people who were murdered in New York were not my countrymen... The blessing of Theo van Gogh's death by these barbarians is deadful and the people of Denmark should take heed. See that they now face a new enemy, Hitler in a head scarf, and that they should confront it at all odds.

PhotoFixer3
Nov-14-2004, 07:09
The Religion of Peace and Tolerance Strikes again.... (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/14/wchin14.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/14/ixworld.html)
Well... I guess the religion of peace and tolerance is up to no good again, this time in China, last time in The Netherlands, Then in Beslan, Russia. Then in Spain, Then in Bali... Kashmir... Sudan... Seems to me that the religion of peace has a hard time getting along with their neighbors...

Priest
Nov-14-2004, 07:10
okay... listen up. There is more than 400 million people in Europe.

I don't know where you are heading at. It is like.. you don't really understand what I am saying to you. The quote you use from me.. doesn't really have anything to do with your statement.

I don't agree on you the slightest. Simply can't.. you're too much a rascist, for me to waste my time arguing with.

The relationship between the west and islam is a problem.. and the situation is only made worse by types like you. Every race, every culture presents a high percentage of morons, and a few really good and intelligent people. The latter being able to respect people, also of different culture than their own..

PhotoFixer3
Nov-14-2004, 07:23
Times Online Interesting read.. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1358233,00.html)
Interesting article for ya Priest... I'm a racist? Wait, wait, wait... did I hear that correctly? Let me see... I grew up in Gary, Indiana. Went to an All African-American high school, if you don't know Gary, Indiana is a rough neighborhood... IF I was a racist I would NOT be alive today... I'm the one on the side of liberating Arabs, your the one that believes Arabs are to stupid to govern themselves.

PhotoFixer3
Nov-14-2004, 07:37
I don't agree on you the slightest. Simply can't.. you're too much a rascist, for me to waste my time arguing with.



ummm, maybe you should look up the word "racist" in the dictionary, Islam is NOT a race... It is a religion, NOT unique to one race, if you notice I pointed out Bali and Beslan, Russia. Those were NOT Arabs, but they were muslims.

Priest
Nov-14-2004, 08:06
I don't like any religions, but religion is a personal thing.. I respect that people have their own religion as long as they let us others be as they are.

I see no reason, on why to wage war on another culture.. maybe it is not a question about race.. doesn't matter.. it is still a divide between different cultures, and it is ultra-nationalistic right-wing freaks on both side that make the whole **** boil.. each in themselves believing that they are the ones that are vessels of the truth..

PhotoFixer3
Nov-14-2004, 08:23
I agree with you 100% up to a point, when you talk about... How people should let people be as they are... I agree with that statement 100%! What are your feelings of the Arab Muslims in the Sudan murdering Black Christians by the 1000's? They are being slaughtered simply because they are Christians! Does the UN stop it? NO! What are your feelings of the Muslims attacking the Christian School in Beslan, Russia? Again simply because they are Christians, were they allowed to be as they were... Priest I think your a good man, I just wish that you could actually see all the things are going on, you can't hide your head in the sand and hope that this will just go away like some fairy tale. Leadership is what is needed now, Europe needs a Winston Churchill, Tony Blair will do but I fear, Europe will have to face a tradgety worse than what they did in Spain for them to realize that they are at war. I pray that day does not come, but if it does... I hope the Europeans can answer the call...

Priest
Nov-14-2004, 14:48
A little tale about short term sollutions versus stable long term solutions.

One thing both of us can agree on, is that our current world situation is [censored].. not many people would place their doubts on this fact, and optimistic views becomes a more and more seldom thing.

During the spring of this year, me and a a guy I know, had contact with a person from the island Mindanao, in the Philipines.

His name is Pedro Luis Cinco, and is in many way quite an extra ordinary good hearted person, that presents to me an ironical contrast to the solutions i see beeing made elsewhere in the world. Let me explain.

In the Philipines, Luson is the main island, with Metro Manilla as its main capital. The government is centralized... hence to say.. all decisions are taken in Manilla, the money, goods etc... is produced in the vast amount of islands around it. The next largest island is Mindanao. Mindano is producing 60% of all goods in the Philipines, but get back very little. Mindanao is very poor, and its infrastructure, healthcare etc.. is very very bad.

So.. Mindanao has wanted to be free for a very long time, and this of course has caused military crashes.

The main rebel militant group in mindanao is NPA (New Peoples Army), a communist division containing about 20.000 soldiers. Around NPA is a long range of more obscure movements.. and one of them called Alex Boncaya Brigade.. sort of a communist/terrorist movement, was the one where our contact Pedro Luis Cinco was part of. Until 20-25 years ago he was fighting suppression in the country by means that is [censored] up.. assasinations, bombings..etc...

One day he came in touch with a woman named Annie Enriqeuz Geron, head of organisation PSlink. PSlink is made with danish sociodemocratic system as role model. PSlink organises workers to stand up for their rights.. usually health care workers. Organising in a pseudo-tyrannny is a good thing if people wants their voice to be heard in contrast to their corrupt politicians.

Anyway.. Annie talked with Pedro. She made him realize that you wouldn't make it anywhere by bombing or killing... solutions for peace was long term. Bombing is basically a form of solution that can be compared with trying to get rich by selling drugs on the streets.. something comes out of it.. fast money, but loads of trouble.

Pedro came to realize that his measures was wrong. Now, and during the last 20 - 25 years, he is doing his part to further stabilisation of the Philipines. Organising workers, educating them. Learning people to read. Improve health care. Start initiatives to further the infrastructure, as well as being part of the peace talks between militant groups, and the government.


My point is, and I was quite interested in this guy because he presented a contrast to the solutions I see the US, Britain and Russia make.

Because of media whoring prime-time electionships of presidents and ministers no solution is made long term.

Only short solutions that make people to see short term results. The weapon manufactorers, media industry etc., have no interest in longer solutions. They think of what gives them money in the current situation, and this is one of the reason why I posted the movie in the first place, because of my opposition to the so called "corporatism".

At least. Try to give it a thought. We will propably never agree on this matter, but look at the current world situation. It is very fragile.. the last parts of stability we have left is not holding very well together. We are on the edge of a religious war, that can rage for decades. I don't want to see a war like that.. but after watching the polarisation of people around their flags, religions, or whatever.. listening to the stupid people on each side, speaking up, but only speaking of hatred, I see a world that is step by step walking down the path to the 3rd world war, that in many ways seems quite inevitable.

Each bomb that falls.. doesn't really looks like freedom does it? Total annihilation for democracy?

and a question for you: how can you actually know that your kind of democracy actually is the best? Democracy comes in many forms.. we have one kind in Europe, another in US.. all our lifes we get told that our way of governing is the best, but is it? Who are we to say that our way of thinking is better than anybody elses?

Priest
Nov-14-2004, 15:07
to your last post.. (it wasn't showing before I posted this one, but there's some problems with updating..)

about Beslan. I hope my last post describes pretty much my opinion towards what should be done.

My point is.. problem is not one place. Things aren't black and white. We are just a big a part of the problem as they are. I wouldn't define myself as being a hippie or anything, but in these dark times, I think the only real thing to do is try to be as tolerant as possible, and try to spread tolerance. Not incide fear or hatred.

This is of course a very hard thing to do, and I actually don't believe in people being able to... and I pretty much believe that even if we don't like it.. war will come and it will be bad.

Back to Beslan. I think it was a shame what happened there. Another grotescue moment in our history.

Actually made this pic after the situation:
http://www.deviantart.com/view/10997160/

Well... as it is.. we shall not forget how russian actions are in Chechnya. There's a reason for people being pissed there.. I would just wish that people would leave kids out of it...

Lotus80
Nov-14-2004, 15:34
hmm, my understanding of the Beslan incident is, that it wasn't so much about religion as it was about the ongoing war between Russia and Chechnya.. I don't think you can blame Islam on this one, photofix.

Priest
Nov-14-2004, 16:41
hmm... the Russian/Chechnyan conflicts goes back a long way to the reign of Stalin when the counrty was annected by Sovjet, and the chechnyan people was deprived of all rights, and was deported to Kasakhstan and first had the possibility to head home in 1957. (Stalin was convinced that

There is more to this conflict than so..
also think as the fact that some of the Beslan terrorist was russian/ingusjetian, from the part of Russia called Nord Ossetia. This states of course that the conflict is extremist religous... Reason why this is stated was the presence of ingusjetic ex-president Rusland Ausjev, for negotiations with the terrorists.

Anyway.. there's a lot of different reasons for this war..

and to correct on you Lotus, there was actually a huge part of the militants that was from other arab countries(Afghanistan for an example who have never really been friens with Russia).. so the war was partly religious.. but again.. there's a lot of old hatred being ignited in this region as well as russian resource interests in the region..

Southern parts of chechnya is holding big resources of natural gas and oil..

recommendable link on background for the conflict. very neutral information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

Priest
Nov-14-2004, 16:43
there's a lot about this incident that is kept obscure... I think that both sides have too much dirt on their hands.. and there's a fear that it will set ablaze a large scale conflict in the region..

Problem is.. it is hard to obtain neutral information about this area, due to russian control with press.

Priest
Nov-14-2004, 16:48
one more question for you PhotoFixer..

have you ever considered that your own government was aware of what happened 9.11, before it happened, but let it happen because it had possibilies.. hence the reason why I earlier recommended you to check out Brzezinski.

Can you honestly say to me, that you believe totally in your government, and that they are interested in the truth and doing the best for everyone?

PhotoFixer3
Nov-14-2004, 17:26
and a question for you: how can you actually know that your kind of democracy actually is the best? Democracy comes in many forms.. we have one kind in Europe, another in US.. all our lifes we get told that our way of governing is the best, but is it? Who are we to say that our way of thinking is better than anybody elses?


There has never been a War between two democracys FREE people do NOT go to war with one another...

PhotoFixer3
Nov-14-2004, 17:28
My point is.. problem is not one place. Things aren't black and white. We are just a big a part of the problem as they are.


You sound like the blame America first crowd here in America.

PhotoFixer3
Nov-14-2004, 17:30
and to correct on you Lotus, there was actually a huge part of the militants that was from other arab countries(Afghanistan for an example who have never really been friens with Russia)


Priest, Afgans are NOT Arabs..

Lotus80
Nov-14-2004, 17:34
Sorry Priest, I wasn't aware of that. I thought I'd heard that they were Chechen rebels..

Frederik Magle
Nov-14-2004, 17:35
PhotoFixer and Priest, in the future please don't make several posts in a row, if you need to update/add something in a post use the "edit" function.

PhotoFixer3
Nov-14-2004, 17:35
one more question for you PhotoFixer..

have you ever considered that your own government was aware of what happened 9.11, before it happened, but let it happen because it had possibilies.. hence the reason why I earlier recommended you to check out Brzezinski.

Can you honestly say to me, that you believe totally in your government, and that they are interested in the truth and doing the best for everyone?


I do NOT believe in conspiracy, they have done commission after commission, and found nothing... For some fruit cake to come along with some half-baked conspiracy theroy it is out of line. The President NO matter who he is would NOT have let 9/11 happen.

PhotoFixer3
Nov-14-2004, 17:36
Hey Frederik, nice for you to opine https://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif how ya been?

Priest
Nov-14-2004, 18:36
Ever heard of the Reich Tag fire?

One thing is following ones goverment, but not raising questions..

Let me tell you about psychology of power. The higher you get in the hierarchy, the colder the air gets, but the view gets incredible.

When you then look down upon the little people below you.. they gets deranged to be numbers and statistics. Not life and individual faiths.. just numbers.

All these numbers have to get sorted in some way.. that is done by pleasing or neutralizing the ones that can become the biggest opposition to you. With 280 million people, there are a lot of interests. Some interests are going to vote for you, others sponsor your campaign. So there´s a hell of a lot of buttkissing and threatening that has to be done.

If you do go through the trouble of actually reading litterature written by some of the people in power. A lot of their stuff is about how to handle crisis and how to manipulate with the opinion of the people.

This is way of working, is the way that people always have done. Take for an example the senate of Rome in medieval times... people are like people always have been.

Also to apply to understanding I can as well recommend you to dive into thoughts by Machiavelli. Either The Prince or some of his other works. It describes well how to please and do with your population. Sun Tzu also describes it pretty well in The Art of War, written 500 b.c.

Thoughts by these people are the thoughts that yours and my government is based upon.. of course molded and reshaped by tons of generals, politicians and philosophers through times.

Read into these things.. try to understand how a system works, and you will see that governments are not to be trusted.

I don't say that these actions being made are evil.. because they are understandable in the hemispere of power, but the acts that reaches normal people may seem very sinister.

Taking new measures of ideas takes great action.. (again.. Brzezinski).

PhotoFixer3
Nov-14-2004, 19:00
I like your thought, but I have heard it again and again, and the thinking is flawed... To think that Freedom and Liberation is NOT the way out of our problems leaves us where...? Thats right, stuck in a world where innocent people are getting their heads cut off, liberation and freedom for the oppressed in the Muslim world, is the ONLY way to stop the hatred. We need solutions, not wishes of a fantasy that this will just end on its own it takes sacrifice to solve problems, some people said the Japanese could not have a democracy because they had an emperor, well, they have a wonderful country and the Japanese people are great! It is a right for ALL people to be free, and Freedom they shall have...

Priest
Nov-14-2004, 19:32
technically I wouldn't call the japanese society a democracy. I can't remember the japanese word for it. A girl I know explained it to me a little while ago.

Japan is a strictly conservative societ. You can vote for presidents and stuff, so in that sort of way it is democratic... but.. power in Japan is a legacy that has given from generation to generation through the times. It is basically a matter of five companies making a union... these 5 companies are the line of old japanese lords, who had gone corporate.

Right now Japan is going low profile because they are scared as **** of what the chinese might be doing, so they are spending a lot of time conecting themselves with the chinese economy, entangling themselves within their system, making parallel buisness ventures... one because of the market.. two.. to make it harder for China to wage war upon them.

Well.. It is not that I don't think that people should be liberated.. but it is a long process.. and I don't think that bombing campaigns alone is enough.

The interests the US have in their military ventures are far too clouded, and stinks way too much of the only long term subjects they are heading for is what brings them mammon.

Personally I'm not interested in an all american dominated market. No fence, but your version of "democracy" is not my taste.

Don't get me wrong.. I think that every system has advantages and problems. The way that the US system is put together makes it easier to operate faster in comparison to organs like EU and UN... but.. problem is.. I don't believe in the judging that is taken.


There is one more thing, taken in mind of differences in western and islamic culture.. as well as western culture being divided. In Europe we had the french revolution which gave birth to a long range of ideas.. it bred great thinkers like Kant and many others.. and after many bloody revolts that spread its way all the way to Russia, the power of the church was more or less abolished.

Islam haven't had that changes. That is a problem. No doubt. Religion is very strong there, and with suppressed economy by the western world, this gets even worse.

America, as I see it.. is taking steps back. For each day that passes religion becomes stronger and stronger, merging with the central power of the country. Combined with the patriot act and many other restrictions.. I don't see the US system being anymore sensible than any other form of regime.

If I should look for a regime change I would go look quite another place..

Neoconservatives, members of the European Roundtable of Industries and and saudi princes.. a long with a long list of other bastards. I'm not in favor of terrorists or dictators... just mention that it is worth looking at ones own soil before throwing rocks... or bombs.

Priest
Nov-14-2004, 20:05
Sorry Priest, I wasn't aware of that. I thought I'd heard that they were Chechen rebels..



they was.. just not all of them.

But there is many from the caucasian regions who haven't had a nice time.. problems work both ways. check the link I posted. It gives an okay insight in the history of the area, and is in itself also holding several sublinks to other sites.


I have been talking about this conflict earlier today with a beautiful russian girl I know.. it is a strange crisis we're having.. every action that is taken is very crucial for the whole world situation. I don't say I have the perfect solution for anything, rather than ask people to think and be critical towards what their leaders say.

Think before you do radical stuff.. before you grasp upon radical opinions.

Unfortunately I don't really believe in the good of mankind. I only believe in the good in some people.

There are the people that are meant to be rallied and there are those who will rally others. The latter dictates how our world looks like, more or less, until someone comes around and rally the morons in a new direction.


The world with its diversity of different cultures, is like a huge puzzle and unfortunately the pieces aren't really fitting together..

right now.. though we might have made huge technological advances.. we are taking several steps backward.. throwing ourselves into a situation that reminds me of crusades / jihad from medival times

PhotoFixer3
Nov-15-2004, 03:10
Personally I'm not interested in an all american dominated market. No fence, but your version of "democracy" is not my taste.


The elections in Afghanistan(the first free elections ever in Afghanistans history)is not your taste? hopefully the elections soon in Iraq are not your taste? I don't understand what your saying... Or if your statement revolves only around economics, maybe your whole problem is rooted in the fact that you are jealous of America? You should remember, after WWII after your Europe was destroyed we did NOT keep it for our own, but we pumped huge amounts of US tax payer dollars into it to rebuild the cities. America is your friend and you should not be jealous of it nor fear it.

PhotoFixer3
Nov-15-2004, 03:30
Priest as to racism, this is racism web page (http://www.modbee.com/state_wire/story/9428611p-10337066c.html)

Priest
Nov-15-2004, 04:57
racism has many forms.

why should I be jealous on America? Too much hypocricy for my taste. I like it here in Europe. If I should move somewhere else I would move to Russia... but that is because Moscow is an awesome town.. and the girls are beautiful.

I actually do fear the States.. not as a direct threat, but because of the consequences of their actions, how it might inflict the rest of the world..

First of.. the american economy is having a very bad time.. it is too huge, to not make a difference to the rest of the world if it crashes. As I described to you earlier.. I see the states as the spark of fire, that will ignite the world situation.

The US consisting of companies with way too much power.. but I don't want to go into this again, because I think I have described my point pretty clearly in the previous posts.

I say capitalism, propaganda and oil interests. You say freedom and liberty. We view the world with different eyes.

At least. Do yourself a favor and study some of the litterature I have recommended you. The sources are of different political opinions, so I am not trying to force a certain agenda upon you.. together the texts give a good insight in what power is and how the human psyche acts. Read and understand some of this stuff... then take in consideration what I have said. I don't say you will agree with me.. but you will look upon things with a lot more nuances than you currently do.

PhotoFixer3
Nov-15-2004, 07:03
I know exactly where your coming from, America has to much power, the American people are stupid rednecks... The American government is run by oil companies.... blah blah blah... you sound like Michael Moore... Bill Clinton gave no bid contracts to Haliburton in Kosovo, thats ok because he's a democrat... Bush does it.... oh hell must be some damn conspiracy! Ever think that maybe the Army likes the way that company operates? Not to many companies can do what Halliburton does, As you know a war zone isn't pretty. Plenty of Halliburton workers have been killed in Iraq(55 so far)
read this article... Good article (http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=17&id=36383)

Priest
Nov-15-2004, 07:56
Sorry but I don't see what this article has to do with anything... of course there is a risk of getting killed if you go to a war zone.

So are they sacred just because they have lost people?

PNAC. Project for the New American Century.

PNAC consists of some of the following people:
Trent Lott, Richard N. Perle, Elliott Abrams, Dick Cheney, Paula Dobriansky, Aaron Friedberg, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald H. Rumsfeld, John R. Bolton, Zalmay Khalilzad, Vin Weber, and Paul Dundes Wolfowitz

many of these people have in some ways connections to the oil industry as consultants or board members.

PNAC was formed in 1997 by a mix of conservative politicians and academics.. Already in 1998 under the government of clinton they started to put pressure on the government for a harder line against Iraq, as well as the construction of the missile defence system against so-called rogue states.. which I personally see as a break with the very foundations that NATO was build upon.. the anti-ballistic missile treaty.


The Key positions for PNAC's agenda is the defense strategy document, "Rebuilding America's Defenses". It is divided into the following categories:

1.
“Develop and deploy global missile defenses to defend the American homeland and American allies, and to provide a secure basis for U.S. power projection around the world.”
2.
“Control the new ‘international commons’ of space and ‘cyberspace,’ and pave the way for the creation of a new military service—U.S. Space Forces—with the mission of space control.”
3.
“Increase defense spending, adding $15 billion to $20 billion to total defense spending annually.”
4.
“Exploit the ‘revolution in military affairs’ [transformation to high-tech, unmanned weaponry] to insure the long-term superiority of U.S. conventional forces.”
5.
“Need to develop a new family of nuclear weapons designed to address new sets of military requirements” complaining that the U.S. has “virtually ceased development of safer and more effective nuclear weapons.”
6.
“Facing up to the realities of multiple constabulary missions that will require a permanent allocation of U.S. forces.”
7.
“America must defend its homeland” by “reconfiguring its nuclear force” and by missile defense systems that “counteract the effects of the proliferation of ballistic missiles and weapons of mass destruction.”
8.
“Need for a larger U.S. security perimeter” and the U.S. “should seek to establish a network of ‘deployment bases’ or ‘forward operating bases’ to increase the reach of current and future forces,” citing the need to move beyond Western Europe and Northeast Asia to increased permanent military presence in Southeast Asia and “other regions of East Asia.” Necessary “to cope with the rise of China to great-power status.”
9.
Redirecting the U.S. Air Force to move “toward a global first-strike force.”
10.
End the Clinton administration’s “devotion” to the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty.
11.
“North Korea, Iran, Iraq, or similar states [should not be allowed] to undermine American leadership, intimidate American allies, or threaten the American homeland itself.”
12.
“Main military missions” necessary to “preserve Pax Americana” and a “unipolar 21st century” are the following: “secure and expand zones of democratic peace, deter rise of new great-power competitor, defend key regions (Europe, East Asia, Middle East), and exploit transformation of war.”


doesn't sound very pleasant to me... sorry to say...

Following is their own website.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/


other sources
http://www.pnac.info

http://home.earthlink.net/~platter/neo-conservatism/pnac.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_louise_010603_pnac.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/stockbauer1.html

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/org/pnac.php



Dramatic increase in defense funding results in lucrative contracts to companies like United Defense, that in the first place is connected pretty much to the government.

PhotoFixer3
Nov-15-2004, 19:35
Sounds good to me, Europe is the United States Allie. If you know your history, we won the cold war in part by putting nuclear weapons in Europe... Stratigies change for the threats we face, North Korea now has Nuclear Weapons, if we were still in the ABM treaty we would NOT have any form of defense against their nuclear missles, now we do... It is not a perfect defense but its better than nothing. Wouldn't you want your homeland defended by a missle defense, for an accident? What if Russia has a silo malfunction and a nuclear missle was launched at Copenhagen on accident? The missle defense would have a chance of intercepting it and destroying it. Or what if Iran tryied to destroy our friends in Isreal? Why fear a defensive weapon? As to the reconfiguration of our nuclear weapons the United States is researching a new nuclear weapon, not an air blast, nuclear weapon... but a nuclear bunker buster that could be used to deter or destroy rogue states nuclear cache's... i.e. North Korea or Iran...

PhotoFixer3
Nov-15-2004, 22:29
U.S. conducts successful test of anti-ballistic missile laser (http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_9.html)

Priest
Nov-16-2004, 15:45
well.. here comes the point of the discussion where we actually have nothing more to disguss...

.. because.. what you think is a fantastic idea, is what I find as being one of the most freaking and crappy ideas at all, and I think that most of the world outside of America agrees with me on this one, including something like 48 % of the american population.

Why not build a freaking Deathstar while you are at it??

If there's going to be a 3rd world war I have a pretty good idea of who will be to blame.

PhotoFixer3
Nov-16-2004, 18:07
Priest we have already endured past the 3rd world war, it was called the cold war.... we are now on to the 4th World War, and its called the War on Terrorism, it was started with the bombing of the US Marine baracks in Lebanon back in the 80's...

Priest
Nov-16-2004, 23:24
I don't care what the [censored] it is called... I still don't think a world war is a good idea.. no matter what it is called. Is that understandable?

Technically the US has been in war with a lot of places during the last 50 years, so I would pretty much say that they keep it as an ungoing event..

PhotoFixer3
Nov-16-2004, 23:56
I don't care what the [censored] it is called... I still don't think a world war is a good idea.. no matter what it is called. Is that understandable?


Priest! WE DID NOT CHOOSE THIS WAR! DID WE ASK FOR OUR MARINE BARACKS TO BE BLOWN UP BY TERRORISTS IN BERUIT IN THE 1980's? DID WE ASK FOR TERRORISTS TO BLOW UP OUR EMBASSYS IN KENYA AND TAZNANIA? DID WE ASK THE TERRORISTS TO BLOW UP THE USS COLE? DID WE ASK THE TERRORISTS TO BLOW UP THE WORLD TRADE CENTER IN 1993? DID WE ASK THE TERRORISTS TO BLOW UP THE AIRPLANE OVER SCOTLAND?
DID WE ASK THE TERRORISTS FOR THE BALI BOMBING? DID WE ASK THE TERRORIST TO KILL THE RUSSIAN CHILDREN IN BESLAN? DID WE ASK THEM TO DESTROY THE WORLD TRADE CENTER ON 9/11? NO! THEY STARTED THIS WAR WE ARE HERE TO FINISH!

Priest
Nov-17-2004, 00:21
http://maddox.xmission.com/keyboard4.jpg

hey.. it seems like your "caps lock" button is broken

If you (the US) wasn't here in the first place or had strong military presence and influence in a lot of other places... trying to reshape and inflict the world to accord to US interests.. then it wouldn't had happened in the first place.

I'm sorry for your losses, but think of how much western influence causes of losses of lifes in the world each day.. due to the fact that we make a living on what other countries don't have.

We like being able to buy cheap stuff... and they are able to make it in countries that we supress. This counts for both the interests of EU and US. We have a responsibility for our actions that we take.

I could go around and blame you for a lot of incidents that US has started during time, but it is not relevant to our current discussion, as well as some of the topics you are bringing up.

PhotoFixer3
Nov-17-2004, 06:18
Your a [censored] idiot, so Bali got bombed because of the United States? The Children in Russia got killed because of the United States? The airliner got shotdown over Scotland because of the United States? Think you [censored].

---
[Please refrain from using foul language or this discussion will be stopped right here and now. /corno]

PhotoFixer3
Nov-17-2004, 06:24
We like to be able to buy cheap stuff, and you blame the United States? Shouldn't you blame the country that is not giving their people suitable conditions? i for one DO NOT like what is going on in China one bit, but.. it is not the United States job, we are giving them jobs, if the Chinese only want to pay their people pennies thats their business, I do not agree with it, and soon I hope the Chinese people will form a labor movement. At least we are giving them jobs to work... Given the fact that there is like over 2 billion of them!

Priest
Nov-17-2004, 19:02
Technically I blame the whole west for exploiting markets.. not just the US. I haven't said that we aren't a part of the problem. Difference between our opinions is,I am not nationalisticly blinded. I am able to look upon my own nation and see flaws in the system..

But fun thing.. power has a tendency to move west.. it has done that all the time through history. Face it.. the US has pissed of the rest of the world. No one wants them to be unipolar any more.. their arrogance becomes their own downfall..

Problem is.. due to struggle all over the planet is.. we'd propably get China as the next major player.


Anyway.. you are to blinded to really listen to what I write to you. I ask you to open your eyes.. you ut your hands over your ears and scream the verses your government have taught you. Good dog.


Problem is everywhere. It is actually not about who started what.. it is a problem that too large a percentage of the worlds population is technically morons.

We will allways have wars. It is part of our evolution.. we started killing smaller animals.. now we kill each other as well as anything else. We are huminaty, we are the biblical plagues incarnated.. we are worse than locust.


Mankind is a huge puzzle, and the pieces are't really fitting. Mix it with terrorism, high-tech weaponry, morons, religion and capitalism... we have a freaking worldwide party.

thisismethen
Nov-21-2004, 23:18
I think George Bush sucks, det only thing he ewer vorried about is his stupid oil, and how to earn money!

thisismethen
Nov-21-2004, 23:19
As and examble you can se the film called Fahrenheit 9/11!