Terrorism, elections and conspiracy theories.

[Priest]

Yesterday I had a talk with a friend of mine, about what the neoconservative cabinet of the US, would do to hold their grasp of supremacy. Well... a good way to have another 4 years clinging to the throne, might be the capture of Osama bin Laden, dead or alive, close to the elections 2004.

British and US intelligence have been very eager to tell the public that Osama bin Laden is "still alive". Struggle for supremacy might remind us a little once in awhile about George Orwell's 1984. All material about the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden is allways something like, we got this anonomus tape with a voice that might be the voice of Osama etc.

What measure would a regime be willing to take to stay in power. When politics is guided by oil and the interest in winning the public opinion it's hard to say, but it does sometimes give you food of thought.

Why is it, that the US government aren't interested in giving the independt comitee, made for unravelling the questions about sep. 11, some extra 60 days? If they have nothing to hide, 60 days is nothing compared to the historical value of what happened that dreaded day where we saw the Twin towers collapse.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the US has been in desperately need of a new enemy. The world is settling for a new fault lines. The era, we can call Pax Americana is on it's verge of dissolving. The US are well aware, that it is impossible to be the one who is calling the shots for a longer while, so what better way is there, than declaring war on the Unseen enemy? And does this enemy actually exist at all? These questions are of course impossible to answer, and as a part of the general public you can only guess. The US might be right or they might be staging an excuse for making a new Crusade.

But it is not unheard of, that regimes stage events for the purpose of powerstruggle. Take for an example the capture of Saddham Hussein. Was he captured be Kurds and then handed out to the US military? Another good example... the Reich Tag.

Anyway. Here is two related articles snatched from links from Aljazeera.com.

The first article is about the scheming of the US capture of Osama. Linked from Prison Planet.

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/whos_lying/news.asp?whos_lying_news_id=5

The second is linked from CNN, about the ongoing war on terrorism.

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/whos_lying/news.asp?whos_lying_news_id=6

For those of you, who reads danish, here's a news story fron journalists from Iran, that also refers to the staging of Osama bin Ladens capture.

http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.sasp?PageID=308616


Also for further reading about politics of supremacy I can recommend the book "The End of the American Era", by writer Charles Kupchan, member of the National Security Council and former advisor to Clinton.

Anyway. Post your comment on this matter.

 

[Priest]

Talking of the subject. Here's two interesting quotes. Guess I have posted my opinion now.

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same in any country."

-Hermann Goering (1893 - 1946)
Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, President of the Reichstag, Prime Minister of Prussia and Hitler's designated successor

The second in command of the Third Reich




"These [terrorist] attacks are not inevitable. They are, however, possible, and this very fact underscores the reason we cannot live under the threat of blackmail…The terrorist threat to America and the world will be diminished the moment that Saddam Hussein is disarmed."

-George W Bush (1946- )
Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces

President of the United States of America

 

[Priest]

"A Lie Told Often Enough Becomes The Truth"

-Vladimir Lenin

"a newspaper is not just for reporting the news, it's to get people mad enough to do something about it."

-Mark Twain

 

[Priest]

Here's a step by step guide of how to create an enemy, by Dan Berman.

http://www.theboywhocriediraq.com/

Note from the annoying admin: This is indeed an interesting and important debate you have started here, but would you mind in the future to edit existing posts instead of making a new one for just one link

 

[Frederik Magle]

This is where I stand: I'm very Pro-American!! Unfortunately I find it almost impossible to be Pro-Bush...

I'll go back in time a little to before 9/11. Long before that act of evil and misguided terrorism, I wanted to see the Taliban regime away from power - who didn't? - this was one of the worst regimes in newer times and after 9/11 I was 100% behind the invasion of Afghanistan! There was no doubt in my mind that the Taliban and Al Qaida was working close together and there were hundres of other good reason to overthrow that regime. UN and NATO thought the same and backed the amreican-led invasion. And so did I and still do...however...after the victory, resources should have been spend on rebuilding that war-torn contry, but enter Iraq.

Although there indeed was several good reasons for invading Iraq and removing the dictator Saddam, there was at least as many good reason not to! And the reasons presented to the americans and the international society was doubtful at best. The were no WMD and, unfortunately, I suspect the Bush administartion knew this all the way. There is an old saying that "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". That is true. Iraq could very well end up as an Islamic republic like Iran because of the majority of Shia muslims - they've already passed laws removing womes rights!

Now the war is over, there is no other alternative than to fully support the rebuilding of Iraq, but I'm very weary where it will lead... Hell is just one mis-step away.

 

[Priest]

Well. We've already got a new media hotspot. Haiti.Things is going bad in the US, so let's take away the notion, by fighting a new place.

With the US, contributing themselves as being the Land of God, what happened to "Thou shalt not kill"?

Anyway. I've never been pro-american, and are it even less now. The thing I find scary is how I start to feel an european identity easier to swallow, the more the US is [censored] up.

I have even started to be supportive of a strong EU military in contrast to the unilateral supremacy of the US.

Our world is overcrowded, and we're settling for a new war. I guess that the times of US supremacy is fading giving space for a multi-polar world. But we all know what happened last time the world was multipolar. I fear that the darkest of our last hundred years of history is going to repear itself, just with more advanced technology.

So many places around our world is on the verge of exploding, and it's going to be bad. We should no longer look away from the facts, that our(the western world) exploits of the third world has dire consequences. Billions of people are living in extreme poverty, and they're very soon going to be fed up.

I think the only way to salvation is to have the world bank to cancel the loans to all the development countries. You can't bomb to fight terrorism or problems. This calls for longterm solutions. We have to rebuild the world. It takes time and effort. It calls for leaders that are able to think and take a responsibility, and not a fight for polls. You can't fight fire with fire when it comes to terrorism. It's like putting a fire out with gasoline.

Unfortunately I'm not able to be optimistic about our future excistence. We have already gone way over the line, and when the wheel of capitalism and globalisation is spinning there's no way back.

And if we do get another great war. Will we even learn from it?

 

[KBOC]

Fredrik,

Never fall in love with a politician, he or she will dissapoint you every time.

Bush is an example. He has alienated a lot of his core support. Right now you'll hear of a lot of polls in the U.S. on how Bush's poll ratings are in the dumper.

This has zero to do with the war on terror or the war in Iraq.

It has a whole lot to do with the boarder with Mexico which is an absolute disgrace (those that cross the boarder laying waste to family farms along the boarder as well as the Mexican army crossing over and threatening people that live along the boarder). It has a whole lot to do with the price of oil as well, which Bush can do nothing at all about.

The core of Bushe's supporters are 100% behind the effort in Iraq. They're not entirely convinced the war is going well, but this latest election shows otherwise.

The Mainstream Media in this country consistently reports that Iraqis want us out out out, but Iraqi expatriots as well as returning troops tell a completely different tale.

This election was not a victory for Bush. It was a victory for the Iraqi people. Many are optomistic even IF the refferendum fails to ratify the new Constitution.

I've read that constitution, and done some comparing to the U.S. Constitution (which I consider to be the worlds greatest document)... while the Iraqi constitution seems to have its issues, I see a great deal of wisdom in it. If it fails, I have little doubt hammering out a new document wouldn't be very difficult for the interim government.

The speed of this process, only two years after the toppling of Saddam's regime, is extraordinary!

I wish I could have been there to witness the voters, dressing in their "sunday best" to walk miles to vote! The pride of their purple fingers, the dancing in the streets...

Fortunately, we have in the U.S. an "alternative media" that brings us these images. I don't think this exists yet in Europe but I'm sure it will at some point. It is a media which continuously exposes fabricated news that is agenda driven. Without that balance, there would be no message of hope...

But I digress

Notice please that Dubya has no alternative here. The opposition, in the form of the Democrat Party, is even less popular than the Republican party. Where the Republican Party doesn't do things the way things aught to be done, the alternative is far worse.

There is a recruitement drive going on in the United States right now, perhaps you've heard this, perhaps not, to draft Condoleezza Rice to run for President. She is, by far, the most popular figure in the Republican Party. Personally, I'd be very proud to vote for her... though I don't expect she'd be terribly different than Bush... the alternative, Hillary, is... unthinkable...

So far as Afganistan: Rebuild? Rebuild what? There was nothing there save a few profitable poppy fields! Afganistan is being BUILT from SCRATCH!

Hopefully Afganistan will become self sustaining at some point... but there was never any hope it would be in the forseeable future.

 

[Priest]

I'm not that keen on Condoleeza rice.. she's a vile bitch as far as I reckon. Her agendas are harsh, fair to a certain extent, though I dislike the whole fundament she is standing on.

Main problem as I see it with neocons is that their whole way of thinking is so corrupted by the wills of the major corporations.. or to be more precise. The leading neocons all represents some of the largest companies in the country. Personally I think that there should be a bigger divide between companies and state to wage an acceptable campaign.

.. this counts as well for a separation of church and state.. either it will not be suitable for US to be active in the middle east.

 

[ApeXX]

This is where I stand: I'm very Pro-American!! Unfortunately I find it almost impossible to be Pro-Bush...

I'll go back in time a little to before 9/11. Long before that act of evil and misguided terrorism, I wanted to see the Taliban regime away from power - who didn't? - this was one of the worst regimes in newer times and after 9/11 I was 100% behind the invasion of Afghanistan! There was no doubt in my mind that the Taliban and Al Qaida was working close together and there were hundres of other good reason to overthrow that regime. UN and NATO thought the same and backed the amreican-led invasion. And so did I and still do...however...after the victory, resources should have been spend on rebuilding that war-torn contry, but enter Iraq.

Although there indeed was several good reasons for invading Iraq and removing the dictator Saddam, there was at least as many good reason not to! And the reasons presented to the americans and the international society was doubtful at best. The were no WMD and, unfortunately, I suspect the Bush administartion knew this all the way. There is an old saying that "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". That is true. Iraq could very well end up as an Islamic republic like Iran because of the majority of Shia muslims - they've already passed laws removing womes rights!

Now the war is over, there is no other alternative than to fully support the rebuilding of Iraq, but I'm very weary where it will lead... Hell is just one mis-step away.

I stand beside you on most of the things you have said. I am Pro-American and Conservation, however I dislike Bush. I think that he came into office with the wrong plans, most of which not even conseratves agree with. Believe it or not, I am not one of the people that is going to "bash" him about the war. If he had not gone to war, and years later we found that there were weapons of mass destruction, Bush would have been ridiculed for not going to war. Either way, there would have been poeple that would criticize him.

 

[KBOC]

Main problem as I see it with neocons is that their whole way of thinking is so corrupted by the wills of the major corporations..

The single most corrupt organization on earth is the United Nations. It is run by a cabal of shady characters with direct connections to Saddam Hussein and Jaques Chiraq with billions in kickbacks to U.N. officials and massive amounts of money going to Hezbolla and Al Qaeda from Saddam's regime.

Blaming U.S. Corporations is the most ridiculous cop-out in the world. It is especially ridiculous since the oft repeated idiocy of the U.S. supplying Saddam with Chemical Weapons is a complete lie.

The three nations that supplied Saddam:
1. France
2. Germany
3. Singapore

Who built Saddam's nuclear reactor that the United Nothing couldn't find, and Israel blew up?

Jaques Chiraq.

Anyway... you have no ground to stand upon in your obvious hatred of the U.S.

So far as Condi Rice...

I'll be proud to vote for her if she runs.

 

[giovannimusica]

One just needs to ask Kofi Annan where the *Mercedes* is and then you'll find out how corrupt the UN is. How can one possibly defend an organization whose blue-helmeted soldiers raped thousands of seven-year old girls in Liberia or did nothing to stop the slaughter of a million people when the Hutus and the Tutsi's when berserk???

Time has come to cut down the UN, commit it to the fiery furnace and create a body called the League of Democracies where all members come from democratically elected governments.

Giovanni

 

[Gareth]

A few weeks ago, I heard of a documentary, which had actual footage of a US Defence plane being the first one to fly into the tower, the plane had no windows apparantly (hence the reason why they thought it belonged to the Defence force), but would you think that the Defence Force of America would do that, so George Bush had an excuse to Invade Afganistan??

My opinion on the matter is a no, I don't see why they would.

 

[Priest]

why not.. I don't think they have as well.. though I would believe that someone in the administration might have been pretty much aware of what was going on.

The US have made bitter sacrifices before to force their agenda.. so why not do it again.


I have a hard time to understand why conservative americans have so much faith in their government, their media, their oil and weapon industry..

 

[sondance]

Priest:
It may be if you took the time to get to know conservative Americans you could at least understand why you do not understand them. Do you want to understand them?

 

[Priest]

I am actually trying to understand why conservatives do believe in what they believe..

I think there's a cultural difference between Europe (especially Denmark) and the US. On the left-right wing scale in danish politics.. well your democrats are way further out on the right wing than any of our right wing parties.

So.. understanding is definately not easy.

Also.. I have a very hard time to understand why people can be partiotic about companies. In my point of view it seems sick.


I do agree that the world is not a simple place, so every kind of politic has its flaws, its pros and cons.

 

[Priest]

read this interview with Chomsky that I found quite interesting..

http://www.alternet.org/story/30487/

 

[giovannimusica]

Priest,

Here is a premise for you to contemplate - Countries that have had Monarchical rule have developed a cultural climate that is prone to *ostracise* those who do not conform to the status quo social order that has been engineered by bureacracy. The end result is a *monochromatic* society where there is little impetus for upsetting the apple-cart.

Insofar as the U.S. is concerned, it is a work-in-progress since it is a nation of immigrants. You also have to take into account that there is a constant balancing act beween the Federal Government and the individual States, each with their own competing agenda. Just these two facts alone provide one with a clue as to the dynamic forces at work which change the political landscape and conribute to the dynamism that is the U.S.A.

Granted, there are many other variables too numerous to go into here on MIMF but what does help is to read-up on U.S. Constitutional History. The same goes for coming to terms with other Countries. Read-up on their History and form of Governance.

Let me close with a suggestion for you to get a copy of the book entitled *The Heritage Guide To The Constitution* by Meese, Spalding and Forte. It will help immeasurably in beginning to understand the American Political System. Of course, I could also suggest you to acquire Constitutional Law published by WestLaw.

Cheers,

Giovanni

 

[giovannimusica]

Priest,

Here's an article for you and others who might be interested to ponder and reflect on:

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=011906G


Cheers,

Giovanni

 

[Priest]

First.. thanks for the recommendations. I always enjoy looking into as much as possible. I'm not sucking in one-way litterature in general.. I read everything from socialist to nationalistic litterature, to religous to.. whatever I come by.. so yeah.. might take a deeper look into the heritage of your constitution.

second. I read the article.. and indeed it offers a paradox.. several indeed. First off.. I would like to remind you the fact that the US condems Iraq's use of torture or.. shall we call it hars interrogation methods. So how can a country condemn the methods of another countries methods and using the same relation of methods themselves? That I don't understand. Do you see the double moral? As well as blaiming another country for having weapons of mass destruction when there is no other country have an arsenal as big as the one that you guys have. Also the US feels inclined to actually use nuclear warfare for combatting rouge states that represent an agenda that is different from the ones you have. Is the US path more rightous than Irans? As I see it the US has coursed far more trouble to the world, both political and environmental than other countries have.

I kinda can't help think who is the biggest terrorist nation.

I know it is impossible to be a superpower without stepping upon others. Critical measures have to be taken.. indeed.

Also.. I do believe that the US is far from actually helping against this so-called islamic terrorist thread.. they are making it worse. Problem is as far as I see it, that new fault lines are needed. After Soviet crashed the US was without a proper enemy and the fact that there was a threat in a gathered arab nation.. well.. the middle east was indeed a glorious battle field to try to take hold off.. or at least make the best out of the fact that it shouldn't be too strong. Imagine what it would be like. Them setting the prizes of the oil. Pretty damn bad for US economy. France, Germany and Russia were trying to lift UN restrictions, so they could rebuild iraqi oil fields. Indeed lucrid contracts. I don't say that the agenda of the 3 before mentioned was any more rightous. Far from.. I'm not defending them. They are just as bad as every other nations in the world.

It is a big game to keep in power.. and measures have to be taken indeed.

Anyhow.. what I'm trying to say is. I don't think the terrorist threat was that big a deal, but the idea of someone else being able to take these lucrid contracts was a big big deal and provoking an actual terror threat was worth it, so neither the arab countries or european/russian companies might sit with these contracts.. well.. the terror threat was way easier to cope with.

As far as I see it.

Check out neoconservative litterature.. these things are no secret.. check for an example works of .. I think he is called Brezinski.. wrote the Grand Chessboard. Only have time to read parts of it.


Also I think that this whole charade is promoting a problem that just grows and grows. Sooner or later we are going to have a big divide and we are going to feel it even here in Europe. I'm pretty sure that we're going to see a civil war here in EU between white and arabs. Fools enough on both sides. The US led "crusade" is a catalyst.



But before you see me as only an anti-american.. Let me tell you about my over all opinion. Our world is filled with idiots. A lot of them are in power. Companies have gotten far too big. The human race contains a load of morons and they are currently f*****g up our world. They come in all shapes, sizes, colors and extremist points of views, wether that be neoconservatives, islamists, communists etc.

I do believe the whole will be going down within the next few decades.. the world does once in awhile and I do regret that I have to behold it. It will rebuild itself again until some new conflict does the same kinda thing and in this unfortunate way we will go on.. propably until eternity.

You are part of the problem, I am part of the problem. We all are. We are 6 billion problems walking around on the soil of Mother Earth.. and we are all pissing on her. It is a big urination contest. Everyone claiming we are the one who has a way/government/religion that can piss the longest.

I'm not sorry for the people who die in terrorist attacks, nature catastrophes, wars etc.. I'm sorry for what is happening to the air we breathe, the forests, the oceans and so on.

We are acting like we are being invited into someones house and starts smashing the furniture, taking a dump in the aircondition, urinating on the carpets and eating all the food in the fridge. Until there is nothing left.. or we hopefully find a technology that can clean up after us.

If you ask me.. we don't prove the worth to be here in the first place.

 

[giovannimusica]

Thanx for sharing your Weltanschauung - I really appreciate it

Giovanni