The massacre in Virginia Tech

[Andrew Roussak]

My deepest condolences to the families and friends of those murdered in the massacre of 16th April in Virginia, if there are any in this forum.

I believe that the law, allowing everybody to posess the fire-arm weapons, is terrible. The national tradition sucks , if it leads to the things like that.

I believe as well, that 23 years old ( age of the shooter ) is too young to be that frustrated .

Sorry got no more words for that...

 

[Ouled Nails]

I don't know, Andrew, doesn't Switzerland have a militia law that yields a similar result? I am no gun rights advocate and, tell you the truth, I don't and never have owned a gun, even a hunting gun. But I don't think that it's a legal matter as much as it is a cultural one.

Concerning this great tragedy, I have just read today that students in one of these classes were saved by an elderly engineering professor in his seventies, a survivor from a Holocaust camp. He threw himself against the door (or at the shooter) as the perpertrator of these crimes was trying to get into the class. The brave elder told his students to flee as he was being shot.........

 

[Krummhorn]

Indeed, my condolences to those who have lost family members in this terrible incident. I am also not a gun rights advocate and have no need for having any kind of that weapon in my home - I hate guns that much, even the toy ones.

How we are able to prevent situations like this is beyond my scope of knowledge. I suppose if we outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns ... that is not going to resolve the problems. I was reading today where in one country, where owning a handgun is quite common and legal, shootings occur randomly every day over trivial discussions and minor disagreements. Is there a resolve for this, and what can we do to help?

 

[Sybarite]

I don't know, Andrew, doesn't Switzerland have a militia law that yields a similar result?...

Hardly a similar result.

The risk of being killed by a firearm in the US is higher than in any other Western nation. Of countries outside war zones, the risk is greatest in South Africa, according to a United Nations report.

There are no recent statistics available but UN figures from 2000 showed for every 10,000 Americans, 0.3 were killed by firearms, compared with 0.01 in the UK where handgun ownership was banned in 1997.

In Switzerland where every man of military age is required to keep a gun at home as part of the country's civil defence policy, the number of deaths per 10,000 population was 0.05.

Full story, with graphs at the bottom.

So whatever it is, there seems to be something about the US that makes widespread gun ownership so dangerous.

 

[Andrew Roussak]

I don't know, Andrew, doesn't Switzerland have a militia law that yields a similar result? I am no gun rights advocate and, tell you the truth, I don't and never have owned a gun, even a hunting gun. But I don't think that it's a legal matter as much as it is a cultural one.

Well, you can't just compare US to Switzerland in this respect . I live in 160 km from Switzerland and have some friends there, and I have never heard about any shootings.
Then, every male in Switzerland is actually in a posession of a gun which he gets from the Swiss Army. Every gun is registered and has a serial number on it and every owner is personally responsible for his weapon. That is , the guns are in no less safety as if they were in the barracks. And - you can not buy the firearm in a shop.

I guess for now it is more about the manufacturers' lobby in the US as about some national tradition...

 

[Stronghold]

It is just a tragic event.....

My prayers go out to all people that were affected and their family.

 

[sparky]

Hi I did for many years belong to a gun club which was frequented by loyal upright citizens of the UK many of our members were police officers we were all licensed firearm certificate holders who respected our position, some of us including myself did sessions as firearm instructors to make sure that anyone joining a shooting club was instructed in the proper use of firearms, I personally held a licence to carry many rounds of .22 & .357 magnum ammunition. Since the fire arm laws were changed in the UK it now means that the Englishman's home is no longer his castle and that the only persons owning firearms are criminals intent on doing no good surely this is another little piece of the nanny state where the criminal can do what he likes but the law abiding citizen must stand back and take the flack. Quote me "I think the law is an ass" people in the UK suffer more persecution for speeding than for robbery with violence or for possessing a fire arm, concentrate the power of the law against criminals rather than just trying to earn revenue from the motorist and the world would be a safer and better place.
Yours sincerely V.M.Spark

 

[Sybarite]

Hi I did for many years belong to a gun club which was frequented by loyal upright citizens of the UK many of our members were police officers we were all licensed firearm certificate holders who respected our position, some of us including myself did sessions as firearm instructors to make sure that anyone joining a shooting club was instructed in the proper use of firearms, I personally held a licence to carry many rounds of .22 & .357 magnum ammunition. Since the fire arm laws were changed in the UK it now means that the Englishman's home is no longer his castle and that the only persons owning firearms are criminals intent on doing no good surely this is another little piece of the nanny state where the criminal can do what he likes but the law abiding citizen must stand back and take the flack. Quote me "I think the law is an ass" people in the UK suffer more persecution for speeding than for robbery with violence or for possessing a fire arm, concentrate the power of the law against criminals rather than just trying to earn revenue from the motorist and the world would be a safer and better place.
Yours sincerely V.M.Spark

I live in Hackney, London, but this must be a different England to the one that you describe.

 

[sparky]

Hi Sybarite :tiphat: It is the same England, the era I refer to was 1963 I was twenty yrs of age & ran my own business in Brixton & Stockwell I was living in SW13 Barnes London. I am afraid that it is just times and values that have changed and I must say I believe they have changed for the worst and I am sure a great majority of people would agree with me:cheers: Cheers Sparky

I live in Hackney, London, but this must be a different England to the one that you describe.

 

[Sybarite]

Hi Sybarite :tiphat: It is the same England, the era I refer to was 1963 I was twenty yrs of age & ran my own business in Brixton & Stockwell I was living in SW13 Barnes London. I am afraid that it is just times and values that have changed and I must say I believe they have changed for the worst and I am sure a great majority of people would agree with me:cheers: Cheers Sparky

I'd suggest that that isn't the case, Sparky.

Within my lifetime, rape victims were treated by judges and lawyers as though they were the criminals if they dared to take a case to court. They were quizzed on their sex lives, while what they wore or how they allegedly behaved was used to exonerate the rapist – 'she was asking for it, guv'.

There was no help for victims of domestic violence; police turned a blind eye.

Bullying was simply regarded as a fact of life and nobody attempted to do anything about it.

Child abuse was simply swept under the carpet.

In all these situations in the UK today, at least there is some effort on behalf of the victims. I would suggest that that shows an improvement in general values.

But somewhat further back – the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century, to be exact – it might surprise you to know that London was the (unofficial) world capital of child prostitution. Much of that was down to a lovely combination of syphillis and English hypocrisy over sex.

In the 18th century, gangs of youth from across the class divide used to hijack coaches in London and set them on fire.

The word 'hooligan' actually originated in the 19th century from an old music hall song about a fictional, unruly Irish family called the Hoolies. The word was adopted virtually straight away to describe something that was happening then.

Things change – but not always for the worse. But some things stay the same – albeit with technological changes and improvements.

Given technology, modern medicine, opportunities for women and many other things, I can't actually think of any other period in which I would prefer to have lived.

 

[sparky]

Hi again
I think within our different ways we are actually saying the same thing. I am saying that the victims are not supported whereas the perpetrators seem to have every excuse imaginable put out on their behalf to say that they have had a deprived live, or they have not had an education, they have not had money, not everyone who comes from a poor background turns out bad and that is just as well as there are far more poor than rich. Todays society seems to try to find a way to help the perptrator not the victim, so who is right, I say lock up the perpetrators, in fact incarcerate them then take more time & effort to help the victims, the bad ones will never change they will only rot the rest of the barrel segregate them then the rest of us may live in reletive peace & quiet, you will not get this by molly coddleing the bad ones, you cannot help them they are takers not givers who purely prey on society and I do not think they will ever change. I am sorry to be like this as I am not an agressive person but unfortunately I do know several poeple who have through no fault of there own been victims, then taunted & threatened by the "poor deprived individual who preyed on them in the first place" Society has got it wrong" these people who prey on normal law abiding citezens should be named & shamed
Yours Sincerely Sparky

I'd suggest that that isn't the case, Sparky.

Within my lifetime, rape victims were treated by judges and lawyers as though they were the criminals if they dared to take a case to court. They were quizzed on their sex lives, while what they wore or how they allegedly behaved was used to exonerate the rapist – 'she was asking for it, guv'.

There was no help for victims of domestic violence; police turned a blind eye.

Bullying was simply regarded as a fact of life and nobody attempted to do anything about it.

Child abuse was simply swept under the carpet.

In all these situations in the UK today, at least there is some effort on behalf of the victims. I would suggest that that shows an improvement in general values.

But somewhat further back – the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century, to be exact – it might surprise you to know that London was the (unofficial) world capital of child prostitution. Much of that was down to a lovely combination of syphillis and English hypocrisy over sex.

In the 18th century, gangs of youth from across the class divide used to hijack coaches in London and set them on fire.

The word 'hooligan' actually originated in the 19th century from an old music hall song about a fictional, unruly Irish family called the Hoolies. The word was adopted virtually straight away to describe something that was happening then.

Things change – but not always for the worse. But some things stay the same – albeit with technological changes and improvements.

Given technology, modern medicine, opportunities for women and many other things, I can't actually think of any other period in which I would prefer to have lived.

 

[Stronghold]

Yea I hear ya lets lock theem all up and throw away the key...........

Thats what we do hear in fact a man was just releast this year after spending 20 years of his life in prison for a rape he did not comit....

Exonerated by DNA nice!! apolagy from the prsocutor yea right the poor guy is tramatized for life and what do thay give him hay guess what be happy you are free to live your life now.

Any way this thread to me is not abought people wanking abought a messed up judicial system and promoting victimolagy its abought the people that were horibly killed and a person that sliped through the cracks in are mental health care system.

But hay what do I know right?

 

[Sybarite]

Hi again
I think within our different ways we are actually saying the same thing. I am saying that the victims are not supported whereas the perpetrators seem to have every excuse imaginable put out on their behalf to say that they have had a deprived live, or they have not had an education, they have not had money, not everyone who comes from a poor background turns out bad and that is just as well as there are far more poor than rich. Todays society seems to try to find a way to help the perptrator not the victim...

That's what I'm disagreeing with, Sparky.

Thirty or so years ago, the victims of bullying, child abuse, domestic violence and rape were either ignored or, in the case of rape, themselves blamed in open court for the attack.

That is something that society today tries to do differently. UK society today does not simply brush child abuse under the carpet, as used to happen – it tries to help the victims and punish the abusers.

UK society today tries to help the victims of domestic violence – the police don't simply ignore it now, as they used to, and refuges are supported by the state to help victims, as didn not previously happen.

UK society today actually attempts to do something about bullying, whereas within my lifetime it was regarded simply as a fact of life and nobody tried to do anything about it. Now, in today's UK society, that is not the case.

UK society today actually tries not to have the victims of rape blamed for the rape, and tries to find ways to ensure that more rape cases are prosecuted and that more victims feel that they can come forward and press charges.

So, in four different types of situation, I have shown that victims in the UK today are treated far better than they were just a generation and a half ago, and that the perpetrators have more chance of being prosecuted than a generation and a half ago.

Stronghold: this is the nature of conversation and debate – even in cyberspace – it morphs from one thing into another.

 

[rojo]

Given technology, modern medicine, opportunities for women and many other things, I can't actually think of any other period in which I would prefer to have lived.

Me either. :up:

 

[sparky]

Hi to all, In answer to your comment Me either I say me neither and I send my condolances to all the families of pupils from Virginia Tech and I still believe that the perpetrators of crime are looked after better than the victims and you will never convince me otherwise. Sorry this my own personal view and my view only and I will stand by it as long as have breath in my body, end of story.
stand up & be counted
Vic Spark

Me either. :up:

 

[Stronghold]

Yea I stand by my statment as well people always speak out with blanket staments before thay have all the facts of anything I use my brain people just dont mass kill people for the hell of it do thay?

Maby some do and maby some people are driven to it but we never hear abought thoughs storys do we because people will actually have to take responsabillity as a saciety right.


Does it take a village are just a person too throw in there two cents after the fact.

 

[Sybarite]

It would be interesting to know what posters on this forum from the US think of this little episode.

A paranoid overreaction?

A racist response – he looks a bit like the Virgina Tech killer, after all?

The antithesis of the First Amendment?

 

[Krummhorn]

Imho, paranoya is settling in a bit too much these days here in the US. It seems, anything that can be labeled as 'distruptive' to the normal flow [nobody has defined yet what 'normal' is] puts everyone on a tightrope. Seems when someone connected with OPEC sneezes, our gas pump prices rise 13 cents overnight, because an oil official getting sick might curtail oil production for whatever reason.

We are getting much too jumpity ... 10 years ago things didn't appear to be like this, at least here in the US - I owe much of the jitters to the news media who constantly dig to find things that will make people jump out of their skin. Geez, whatever happened to all the good news. Well, that's the way I feel things are ... more comments from other US peeps?

 

[Sybarite]

... [nobody has defined yet what 'normal' is]...

Excellent point – and so relevant to so many situations.

 

[Stronghold]

It would be interesting to know what posters on this forum from the US think of this little episode.

A paranoid overreaction?

A racist response – he looks a bit like the Virgina Tech killer, after all?

The antithesis of the First Amendment?

Good question....


Well for one I dont think it should have made it to the press room I hate 95 % of the midia thay just stir up crap and leave destroyed lives behind withought giving it a second thought.


But in the last two weeks im starting to see a turn around making things a bit more ballanced which is a start.

As far as that kids esay is concernd being arrested is just stupid its just the mentality that turns thees kids into othority haters.
Thay should have just taken him aside with no fuss had him interviwed by profeshional physcoligist along with mom and dad maby friends ect see what their like maby he needs to switch friends bad influance ect.and maby a three month follow up along with school counciling for a year.

If you dont know a kid and who he is a person in a year than you dont belong teaching.


Just my thought but there to stupid to figuar that out the reall issue is thay dont care to manny kids not enough teachers thay just want to pass theem through no one wants to be a mentor any more.