Viscount Organ

[Diaphone Profundo 64]

Dear Krummhorn

The sound of this organ is magnificent, as you had realised. The Cathedral is used at this recording, that had been done at my home with my computer. You are very lucky to live in a country like yours, as you have thousands of organs to listen and practice. I will refer you this fact and you will understand how Greece behaves to Organ: the whole country has only 14 organs from 7 to 22 stops including the big Klais one at the Athens COncert Hall with IV/76/6080 pipes. I play the organ at the Athens German Church that is an 73 years old Steinmeyer with II/16 and, of course, a lot of problems, even had been restored in 2004. I am very sad for this fact. Organ is not taught nowhere in Greece, by the meaning of a complete subject. Greece does not provides diplomas and the only one Diploma is given comes from the Associated Board of the RSM of London. We are only 2-3 theachers on Athens and you can understand what happens....

 

[james_stevens]

Vs-20???????

Hey guys, I just came across an old Viscount VS-20 electronic organ. I was wondering if anybody has ever encountered one. It looks pretty much like a beginner's keyboard, but I was curious as to the value of one of these, and if it might even be a valuable tool to a recording artist? I don't know, it just piqued my interest. Thanks.

 

[cbakes]

Viscount / excellent quality / excellent value

I don't quite understand Marc's criticism of the Viscount company. Of all of the companies our church dealt with, Viscount's reps were the least likely to criticize others' products. Allen reps disparaged competitors. Rodgers reps disparaged competitors. The only reps we found who brought a grace and elegance to the process were the Viscount representatives. (Frankly, we found the Allen reps to be particularly obnoxious in their statements and characterizations of others' products.)

Our parish, located in a working-class and poor demographic, but has been made very vibrant through excellent music ("social justice through art" we call it), and we elected to purchase a Viscount with accu-pipe sound. We are adding a rank of pipes.

The sound from the Viscount is extraordinary. Though our church is acoustically excellent, this is not the only reason the Viscount is so excellent: it is simply a beautiful-sounding instrument.

I wonder whether Marc works for Allen? His comments are not unlike what we heard from several Allen reps about multiple other competitors. A total turn-off.

 

[hsmoller]

We had to make a tough decision here in the Philippines and it was a matter of getting our foot in the door of churches to graduate from their Yamaha Electones to a better instrument. Here it is really a matter of economics and it is hard to sell the top of the line instrument to churches. We are still feverishly working on churches which have pipe organs to get them restored. One job got going because the console we installed will add to the pipework without adding pipes. We did choose Johannus as the prices were much more reasonable and could integrate with pipework at an affordable price.
We are happy with even the budget models but do find that the speaker
choices and installation can make a big difference in sound quality much the same way as with pipe organs. But our goal is to get real organs back into the churches here and hopefully when the economy gets better we will have a flood of business. Any organists willing to relocate to help us in our mission will be welcomed!
Harv

 

[acc]

I wonder whether Marc works for Allen?

Looking at avatars, it appears that the Marc who posted here under the nickname megodenas is the Marc Giacone who posts on The Organ Forum under the nickname marakas.

So if you look at this discussion, it becomes quite obvious that he doesn't think much better of Allen than of Viscount!

 

[Krummhorn]

... Allen reps disparaged competitors. Rodgers reps disparaged competitors. The only reps we found who brought a grace and elegance to the process were the Viscount representatives. (Frankly, we found the Allen reps to be particularly obnoxious in their statements and characterizations of others' products.)

I wonder whether Marc works for Allen? His comments are not unlike what we heard from several Allen reps about multiple other competitors. A total turn-off.

This is indeed interesting - I used to work in Institutional Sales for an Allen dealer in So. California. We were implicitly told that at no time are we ever to make any dispariging remarks about competitors.

We would work with an organ committee and simply let them hear for themselves the ensemble - we would get asked about brand x, y or z and would gently reply, "go listen for yourselves" ... most all came back and purchased the Allen.

Now, that was the early 70's and they had no real competition in the digital world - times have changed since then, but I would contend that it is still the firm policy of Allen Organ Company (USA) to refrain from making such blasphemous statements. And no, I am not an Allen rep - I am simply a church organist/recitalist that plays a Möller Pipe Organ in my church ... nothing beats the 'real thing'!!

To keep this post on-topic, I have played a Viscount ... about 10 years ago ... it was pretty nice in the strings and flutes, an 'ok' principal although way too 'chiffy', but the reeds were 'thin' and without any lower fundamentals, but that could have been how it was voiced.

Kh

 

[hsmoller]

I think the issue of aggressiveness of sales would vary from dealer to dealer.
Not particularly the brand. I can attest to the So, Cal dealer as not being aggressive except in 1 instance in 1996. Also there can be a certain amount of influence from the manufacturer but in fairness have not seen that from Allen.
Again as far as Viscounts or any other brand a lot depends on what is hung on it at the output and the room and speaker location. Much the same way with pipes (but without speakers of course)
Harv

 

[skinnerphile]

Since you are in Pennsylvania, why not consider a real, e.g. pipe organ, from Organ Historical Society? You will ultimately not be happy with any electronic, no matter how many whistles and bells, because they simply don't sound right. In my experience, the louder they're played, the less convincing the tone becomes.

 

[cbakes]

Viscount organs

Our parish (All Hallows, Sacramento) just purchased a Viscount four-manual, after a long search for the right organ, from the right company, with the right service and sales people.

We are dazzled by the magnificence of this organ. An adjacent parish just bought an Allen Organ, a company we dismissed out of hand as difficult to deal with, and one which poorly grasps the circumstances of parishes who have multiple priorities. We found Allen representatives to be abrasive, arrogant, and too dollar-driven to make us comfortable with Allen's awareness of music as art. Simply dreadful to deal with.

Perhaps it is the rarity of a Viscount in our area, but our organ has received much more attention than the Allen, and dazzles all who hear it. We are doing Camille Saint Saens' Symphony No. 3 (organ), and I can assure you that the Viscount is up to the task.

 

[falcon1]

cbakes, congrats with your new viscount organ!

About a year ago I was thinking about buying Viscount as a practice organ at my home but I delayed it, not because it was bad but rather because budget issues.

Also I must make a note that most electronic organs today can be connected to computer using midi I/O and can access even more realistic sounds with program called Hauptwerk and organ samples created for that.

Again Congrats!

 

[NEB]

I'm thinking about Viscount as a practice organ as well. As always in these things tho it's a trade-off between the quality of the instrument and the (relatively meagre in the grand scheme of things) budget available (sadly).

How much are these electronic instruments dependent on the speaker/sound systems used to run them?

 

[phulshof]

Well, as said, there's a huge difference even within the brandnames. I think you need to take a look at your budget, and the organs you could buy for that budget, and then make a comparison. As an example, I'm trying to decide on my next home organ, with a budget of about 9000-10000 Euro. The options I'm considering are:

• Content D5600
• Johannus Sweelinck 25
• Eminent DCS 375C
• Viscount/Domus Prestige 60

Any thoughts on a choice between these 4, and why?

 

[falcon1]

phulshof, if you have a home organ which has Midi I/O then I would consider buying computer program called Hauptwerk. See here!
You do need a powerful computer but still it's cheaper and you can give your old home organ a new life.

 

[phulshof]

phulshof, if you have a home organ which has Midi I/O then I would consider buying computer program called Hauptwerk. See here!
You do need a powerful computer but still it's cheaper and you can give your old home organ a new life.

Well, to be quite honest: I haven't been able to play much due to CTS these past 2 years (it's a lot better now), and my previous organ died 1.5 years ago. Nevertheless, I've bookmarked your suggestion, and I'll be sure to have a good look at it.

 

[NEB]

Thanks for the reply Phulshof.

Falcon,

If it's all on a computer how do you manage adding say a single stop while in mid flow - do you need to go to the computer to do all that kind of thing?

And do the push button presets still work?

What about the individual drawstops - Are they still operational but with the Hauptwerk 'sounds'?

Sorry - I really don't know much about these electronic instruments and computer simulation programmes...

 

[falcon1]

Thanks for the reply Phulshof.

Falcon,

If it's all on a computer how do you manage adding say a single stop while in mid flow - do you need to go to the computer to do all that kind of thing?

And do the push button presets still work?

What about the individual drawstops - Are they still operational but with the Hauptwerk 'sounds'?

Sorry - I really don't know much about these electronic instruments and computer simulation programmes...

Hi NEB, well I'm no expert but I know that if your organ has MIDI I/O then it should be possible to program those buttons to use with the computer program.
Yes, you can add stops while in mid flow.

 

[NEB]

Thanks Falcon - appreciate the info.

 

[nullogik]

I have a bad experience with a Viscount Opera organ at my old school. It wasn't an old model, probably only a couple of years old but boy did it sound so synthetic and it was digital not analogue. It wasn't a budget model either, I would probably say it was mid range with three manuals and about 50-60 stops (though I've never counted them).

Ok, I now digital organs don't sound as good as pipe organs but still there are some fantastic ones around from Rodgers and Allen that sound extremely good.

This thing from Viscount sounded like a $150 Yamaha keyboard. None of the sounds sounded very authentic with a lot of disturbance from the speakers (which are built in, probably explains why). None of the stops had any "character" they all sounded rather flat and wooden. Its really hard to describe the sound from it without you hearing it but all I can say was that it was very synthetic sounding and comparable to a cheap eleectronic keyboard. No matter how I played the thing, it made my playing sound really wooden and characterless, even my teacher said this!

The keys were made from a very light weight brittle plastic and had none of the solidity that I have come across with from Allen or Rodgers, with very little feedback.

The pedals on the pedal board did not have much travel, thus offering little feedback ie. the pedal travel was very shallow.

The volume controls (foot) ones were extremely loose so, that a slight touch and the volume would shoot up to 100%, it was difficult to get anything between 0 and 100%. Whereas on the Allen and Rodgers instruments I've tried they've all had good resistance helping to the player to get the right volume.

Now you're probably going to say that because its a school instrument it lives a hard life. Well I can tell you that hardly anyone touched the thing and if they had to it was as a last resort.

Everyone, and I say everyone, always choose the Allen organ in the chapel over the Viscount. Once the chapel was in use and I was about to take an organ exam, the only other alternative was the Viscount, I went crazy as I knew I could fail because of that instrument. Thankfully, the chapel was made free and I achieved an excellent score.

Granted this was the only Viscount I have tried (I'm sure they've improved somewhat in ten years or so) but none the less I was less than impressed with build quality, sound reproduction and the overall feel of the thing - first impressions count, and this did no favours.

Personally, I would only ever consider an Allen or Rodgers (with Allen being my preference), but I'm sure a lot of people would disagree but thats my opinion.

 

[hsmoller]

Alot of the organs that were made in those years from the "other" manufacturers were not that good structurally. But anytime one expects quality sound coming from inside the console is expecting way too much. So even an Allen or Rodgers with a built in speaker system would sound pretty bad. We have been dealling with Johannus recently with 4 installations under our belt and I feel the overall craftsmanship as well as sound quality on
their least expensive instruments are quite good as long as one uses external speakers as the primary source of sound. I would agree about the Rodgers and Allen. I have owned an Allen for several years and it is really quality through and through. But in this part of the world the new Rodgers and Allen are too expensive to buy for most churches who can barely afford Yamaha Electones. The better models of Johannus really have that same quality and it is more affordable here and that is why we are using them. But the speaker system and the acoustic environment will make or break an organ.
As the sounds become more pipe like then it is really important to consider these things.
Harv

 

[nullogik]

Alot of the organs that were made in those years from the "other" manufacturers were not that good structurally. But anytime one expects quality sound coming from inside the console is expecting way too much. So even an Allen or Rodgers with a built in speaker system would sound pretty bad. We have been dealling with Johannus recently with 4 installations under our belt and I feel the overall craftsmanship as well as sound quality on
their least expensive instruments are quite good as long as one uses external speakers as the primary source of sound. I would agree about the Rodgers and Allen. I have owned an Allen for several years and it is really quality through and through. But in this part of the world the new Rodgers and Allen are too expensive to buy for most churches who can barely afford Yamaha Electones. The better models of Johannus really have that same quality and it is more affordable here and that is why we are using them. But the speaker system and the acoustic environment will make or break an organ.
As the sounds become more pipe like then it is really important to consider these things.
Harv

I had kinda guessed that integrated speakers would seriously affect performance and agree that from whatever manufacturer, Allen or otherwise the sound is never going to be as good as those from an external set of speakers.

I haven't tried any recent Johannus models but I would be interested in hearing some opinions on them.

However I agree that out of the digital organs I have used, the best overall build quality and sound reproduction has to come from Allen followed closely by Rodgers. On some of the Rodgers the feedback from the keys hasn't been so good and they feel a little brittle, but then these were the bargain basement end and probably should be expected, likewise Allen budget models would probably be the same.

Still I am an Allen man through and through, and would love to get my hands on one of their Renassiance 80 stop three manual organs Just one thing holding me back...my bank balance!!!