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Crescendo Pedal for GrandOrgue

Mathbob

New member
Does the new release of GO have a facility to add a crescendo pedal? I built my own MIDI control boards using Pete Stark's design, and I can reprogam the processors to do all sorts of neat tricks. Adding a crescendo action would be a bit tricky, but do-able. The real problem with that is that it would really only be "valid" for one organ. It would be much better to have this information stored in the .organ file. Anyone have a clever way of doing this? Bob
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Good question Mathbob...
So far, in GO v02 we created crescendo with jOrgan controlling GrandOrgue. Graham wrote an essay on this theme.
Creating crescendo in jOrgan is a breeze, look at my Oberhausbergen Walther organ disposition, where along with a swell, a crescendo pedal is working. See how stop by stop is added.

I attach here the essay by Graham as pdf, as I have it in my archive.
Hope it's a solution for the time being...

Best
Panos
 

Attachments

  • jOrgan-GrandOrgue.pdf
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astazou

New member
If I'm not mistaken, there is a crescendo pedal hidden in the Panels menu.
I haven't tried this feature.
 

Mathbob

New member
Astazou,

You're right! Does anyone have information on how the "panel" features work?"

Bob
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
You're right there it is....

I must try on asap !

Panels working great, afaik about generals, master couplers and some sequencing rows. We open the panel and make changes. Then when closing GO ask us if we wanna save, unless we did earlier manualy.
 

e9925248

New member
Does the new release of GO have a facility to add a crescendo pedal? The real problem with that is that it would really only be "valid" for one organ. It would be much better to have this information stored in the .organ file. Anyone have a clever way of doing this? Bob

The crescendo configuration is part of the setter state. You can share/export/backup the setter content via the export command - GO allows to import the whole settings or only the setter state. This function can also be used to transfer settings between the presets.

The crescendo has 32 steps and each slot (like any other divisional/general/setter slot) can be configured to change all controls or just a subset (scope/scoped).
 

Mathbob

New member
Not sure what you mean by the "setter state". Is there a .organ file I can look at to see how things look?
 

e9925248

New member
Not sure what you mean by the "setter state". Is there a .organ file I can look at to see how things look?

Setter state mean the whole content of the setter (general, divisional, crescendo, ...). You can export/import it via the file menu (import/export combinations).

This file is a text file, but it is an internal file format, which should not be edited by a user. The configuration should only be done via GO. There is no supported way to preconfigure the setter via an .organ file.
All supported elements of a .organ file can be found in the ODF reference in the GO help. Using unsupported things is discuraged, as the interpretation in GO can change.
 

Mathbob

New member
Backrgound: In the past, I've defined combinations & couplers in hard code in the .organ file, so I have no familiarity at all with the "setter". I do know what "setter combination action" is on a real organ; I'm assuming it's the same idea. For example, I was able to use the divisional panel to set up what was called, on old Wick's organs, a "single note pedal to great automatic" allowing a non-organist to couple the lowest note on a manual to the pedal - sort of an organ curio. I could activate this from the console just by using the "listen for event" to connect it. But what if I wanted to define a button on the screen that would activiate such a function; what do I link the button to?

OK - I can get the generals and divisionals to work. Crescendo - which was the main goal - is still a mystery. If "scoped" only affects a subset, how does know which subset? What does "FULL" do? What are the "ABCD" buttons for? In general for all of these boxes, what's the difference in effect between:
REGULAR
SCOPE
SCOPED
FULL
?
There is a myriad of button on the "setter" panel. Do these work in combination with the other panels (eg divisional, general, etc) or independently?

I can set up a great-to-pedal on the divisionals panel; can I make it a great-to-pedal reversible?

I played around with the crescendo panel, setting various stops at various steps, trying regular/scope/scoped/full on each. When I use the pedal, it now turns on one of the stops on with increasing pedal, and turns it off with decreasing pedal - a good sign - but it turns it off even if the stop tab is set, which shouldn't be happening. Another stop gets turned on during increasing pedal, but never shuts off at all. I have no idea what's going on here, or which choice on the crescendo panel did what.

Once these are successfully set up, I think I understand that I must export them if I want to save them. Does the "do you want to save changes?" when closing an organ do this? When I open that organ again later, does it automatically reload the "setter" values, or do I have to import them? There are many buttons to set a numerical value - for something - on the "setter" screen. What are these values for?

I'm getting lost in a forest of detail. Could I ask for a general overview of how the "setter" and associated functions on the "panels" tab work individually and in combination with each other - ignoring the specifics at first? I'm getting the feeling that it will probably do most if not all of what I'm trying to do, but I'm getting bogged down in details.

Thanks, Bob
 
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e9925248

New member
For example, I was able to use the divisional panel to set up what was called, on old Wick's organs, a "single note pedal to great automatic" allowing a non-organist to couple the lowest note on a manual to the pedal - sort of an organ curio. I could activate this from the console just by using the "listen for event" to connect it. But what if I wanted to define a button on the screen that would activiate such a function; what do I link the button to?

It is not possible to link divisionals from the divisonal panel on the main panel - you can only put the panel beside the main panel.

If you want a divisional on the main panel, you have to add a divisional definition to your ODF.

OK - I can get the generals and divisionals to work. Crescendo - which was the main goal - is still a mystery. If "scoped" only affects a subset, how does know which subset? What does "FULL" do? What are the "ABCD" buttons for? In general for all of these boxes, what's the difference in effect between:

GO supports 4 cresendo "setup" to switch between (A, B, C or D).

REGULAR
SCOPE
SCOPED

These settings affect the whole setter. REGULAR means to store the state off all associated elements (changes the scope too). SCOPE stores the scope: The SCOPED mode will only store associated elements, which are ON, when storing the scope.


The ODF allows to exclude some elements from storing in combinations - FULL makes sure, that all elements are stored.

There is a myriad of button on the "setter" panel. Do these work in combination with the other panels (eg divisional, general, etc) or independently?

Some setter controls like SCOPE, FULL, SET affect all setter operations on all panels.

I can set up a great-to-pedal on the divisionals panel; can I make it a great-to-pedal reversible?

You have to define a divisional, which turns the elements off.

Just one question: Why do you need a divisional? It sounds, like you are using the bass coupler of a coupler panel - you can assign these a MIDI event directly.
I played around with the crescendo panel, setting various stops at various steps, trying regular/scope/scoped/full on each. When I use the pedal, it now turns on one of the stops on with increasing pedal, and turns it off with decreasing pedal - a good sign - but it turns it off even if the stop tab is set, which shouldn't be happening. Another stop gets turned on during increasing pedal, but never shuts off at all. I have no idea what's going on here, or which choice on the crescendo panel did what.

I would verify the crescendo content. Using < move to slot 1 (with set off). With > step through the 32 slots and check, that your intended configuration is stored. If not, overwrite with Set+Current.

Once these are successfully set up, I think I understand that I must export them if I want to save them. Does the "do you want to save changes?" when closing an organ do this? When I open that organ again later, does it automatically reload the "setter" values, or do I have to import them?

Save saves the state in the current preset. You only need to export them, if you want to backup/transfer the settings.

There are many buttons to set a numerical value - for something - on the "setter" screen. What are these values for?
You mean probably the buttons for setting the last number of the sequencer slot and for increment/decrementing the current sequencer slot.
 

Mathbob

New member
Well, after reading the replies on this thread and doing a lot of just plain tinkering, I was able to get the crescendo to work. Since I've never used a sequencer, I have no idea what "sequencer slots" are, and SCOPE and SCOPED are still a mystery. I just use REGULAR. FULL doesn't seem to affect the storage of changes. The main concern I'm having now is that on a "real" organ, stops that are drawn before applying the crescendo remain on - unaffected by opening or closing the crescendo. The first active step I have set up is 3. If I draw a stop, then step the crescendo from 1 to 2, the drawn stop will turn off. If I have the crescendo open full, draw a stop not on the crescendo, and then close the crescendo, the stop will get turned off. Don't know if I'm doing something wrong, or if GO just works this way. Maybe using SCOPE or SCOPED would solve the problem, but I haven't been successful in my attempts.

There is one nice effect possible that wouldn't happen on a real organ - at least none that I've played. It is possible here for a stop to be on for the first few steps, and then turn off. (It's been my experience that once a stop is on, it stays on as the crescendo is increased.) This would make it possible, for example, to turn on a celeste stop for small combinations on early crescendo steps, then later turn it off as the ensemble builds. On a real organ, turning it off would save wind, since a quiet celeste wouldn't contribute to a large ensemble anyway.

Bob
 

e9925248

New member
Since I've never used a sequencer, I have no idea what "sequencer slots" are, and SCOPE and SCOPED are still a mystery. I just use REGULAR. FULL doesn't seem to affect the storage of changes. The main concern I'm having now is that on a "real" organ, stops that are drawn before applying the crescendo remain on - unaffected by opening or closing the crescendo. The first active step I have set up is 3. If I draw a stop, then step the crescendo from 1 to 2, the drawn stop will turn off. If I have the crescendo open full, draw a stop not on the crescendo, and then close the crescendo, the stop will get turned off. Don't know if I'm doing something wrong, or if GO just works this way. Maybe using SCOPE or SCOPED would solve the problem, but I haven't been successful in my attempts.

With "sequencer slot" I mean one of the storage location in the sequencer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_action

FULL is only useful for ODFs, which disable storing of some controls - on all other ODFs, FULL has no effect.

GO does not implement seperate hand registers - any change by the sequencer changes the register state. In the real world, you find both variants (with/without seperate hand registers).

Although it is not possible to preserve hand registers, you can program the crescendo in such a way, that it will less likely change hand registers.

* Create a <number of stops>x32 matrix on paper or in Excel. Label it with the stop names as well as the crescendo slots.
* After that put a ON mark in the cell, where you want to turn a stop on and a OFF mark in the cell, where you want to turn a stop off.
* Make sure, that the schema will work in both directions (1->32 and 32->1), so eg. if you put a ON for a stop at slot 4 while doing a crescendo, you probably want to put a OFF in stot 3, so that the stop is turned off, while doing a decrescendo.
* Select SCOPE mode and switch to slot 1. Turn all stops off, turn only that stops on, that have a ON or OFF for slot 1 and store to slot 1. Continue with the remaining slots.
* Select SCOPED mode and switch to slot 1. Turn all stops off, turn only that stops on, that have a ON for slot 1 and store to slot 1. Continue with the remaining slots.

There is one nice effect possible that wouldn't happen on a real organ - at least none that I've played. It is possible here for a stop to be on for the first few steps, and then turn off.

You can find this behaviour also on some real world organs, eg:
http://www.orgelmusik.at/orgeln/orgel_detail/29/
 

Mathbob

New member
Aha! Very helpful.

The Wiki article clarified what a sequencer is - I've never played an organ that has one, but I can see its value. I can also see why traditional organists may object to it. I can see myself pushing + at the wrong time, or twice, and having the registration out of sync with the music; but then again, it's just as easy to press the wrong divisional.

Do I understand correctly that SCOPE is to be used any time there is a change of state in a stop, i.e it is on and is to be turned off, or it is off and is to be turned on - whereas SCOPED is used only for stops that are to be turned on? So it is necessary to make two passes thru the steps, one for SCOPE and one for SCOPED?

Thanks, Bob
 

e9925248

New member
Do I understand correctly that SCOPE is to be used any time there is a change of state in a stop, i.e it is on and is to be turned off, or it is off and is to be turned on - whereas SCOPED is used only for stops that are to be turned on? So it is necessary to make two passes thru the steps, one for SCOPE and one for SCOPED?
Yes. SCOPE restricts a slot (sequencer, crescendo, divisionals, general) to a subset of stops/coupler/... - SCOPED stores the state of controls selected by SCOPE.
 

L.Palo

New member
Hi!

The "sequencer" of GO very closely approximate the idea of a "free combination list" that's very common in certain types of modern organs. This I say from personal experience as an organist and from experience with helping developing new combination systems for real organs.

The basic problem for an organist is of course to keep track of which combination (number) should be used at a certain point in a piece! Some very interesting things really have happened in live concerts where the organist lost track of where he was... Nevermind, this feature really is a wonderful aid and it's possible to save different "combination lists" in GO for easy usage with different concert programs.

Basically this is no different from any modern organ "combination system" that's more advanced than a fixed number of "generals" that's immediately accesible by buttons on the console! You just have to keep track of what number of combination you're currently on and then remember to use the step forward (or backward)!

Again, thanks a lot to Martin and everyone else that has contributed in making GO such a wonderful VPO that it is!

Kind regards

Lars P
 

Mathbob

New member
I followed your sequence of instructions, and it worked! I'm in business. Thanks!

But how about a somewhat unrelated question. (I cheated and looked at the .cmb file - even altered it a bit, and it worked as I expected.) Why are there so many empty slots for Frame Generals, Divisional Couplers, etc?

Bob
 

e9925248

New member
But how about a somewhat unrelated question. (I cheated and looked at the .cmb file - even altered it a bit, and it worked as I expected.) Why are there so many empty slots for Frame Generals, Divisional Couplers, etc?
First:
The CMB format is no secret - the current version is "documented" by the GO code. It is not a stable format (in contrast to the ODF as documented in the help)- anything can change in any way even between minor GO updates.
The user is allowed to change/experiment CMB files in any way, but only GO crashed caused by invalid CMB files are considered a GO bug.
Therefore I discurage any normal GO user to bother with the CMB file content.

To your question:
GO contains that number of elements (either on the main panel or other panel).
 

Mick Berg

New member
I was trying to set up the Crescendo Pedal and ran into a problem, the GC now turns stops on instead of turning them all off!
Also, is there a way for the Crescendo Panel to stay on top while working with it? It's very inconvenient that it disappears every time you select a stop on the main panel.

Thanks,
Mick.
 

Mick Berg

New member
I was trying to set up the Crescendo Pedal and ran into a problem, the GC now turns stops on instead of turning them all off!
Also, is there a way for the Crescendo Panel to stay on top while working with it? It's very inconvenient that it disappears every time you select a stop on the main panel.

Thanks,
Mick.

UPDATE:

Well the phenomenon with the GC seems to have gone away, but I'm afraid with my feeble brain I need help with how to set up the crescendo. Just a simple one, no "scope" or "scoped" needed.

Imagine you are describing the procedure to a six-year-old, then I'll probably understand. (!)

Thanks,
Mick.
 

Mick Berg

New member
UPDATE:

Well the phenomenon with the GC seems to have gone away, but I'm afraid with my feeble brain I need help with how to set up the crescendo. Just a simple one, no "scope" or "scoped" needed.

Imagine you are describing the procedure to a six-year-old, then I'll probably understand. (!)

Thanks,
Mick.

I found out how to set the crescendo pedal, so no need for six-year-old explanation, but I must say I find the panel rather unfriendly. I want the <, current, and > buttons to light momentarily as acknowledgement that they have been clicked. Also I would expect the Set button to just be a momentary. But it works fine.

But the fact that when bringing the crescendo down turns off any stops that were previously drawn by hand, is a big issue. I hope this can be addressed.

Interestingly there is a similar problem with digital mixing consoles, when turning off a Mute Group turns off Mute buttons that had been set manually.

Is there a way to have the crescendo pedal depicted on the main panel?

It's all going very well, GO is great.

Thanks,
Mick.
 
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