Contratrombone64
Admiral of Fugues
Actually, NEB, you're not totally thick at all ... rather it's me that is! My quote should have been directed at krummhorn, I'm an eejit.
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Krummhorn
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church politics
- Thread starter NEB
- Start date
Hi CT,
Yes, I thought of that, but the poor fool couldn't read music ... all he could sing was the melody line and his voice was anything but musical. To add insult to injury, he also ordered the sound technician to turn him up to full volume during the hymns - I could barely hear the organ over the sea lion bellering.
Contratrombone64
Admiral of Fugues
LOL @ sealion bellering ... reminds me of an episode of The Vicar of Dibley, where the told old men in the congregation would try and outsing each other ... both of whom were tone deaf and had the musical panache of a turnip.
Thomas Dressler
New member
Gosh, these musical/political issues seem to be a lifelong issue for all of us. I have to say that in my present position they are not too bad, though one never knows how things might change when my pastor retires. I believe part of the resolution involves trying to find a place that "fits." I tend to like working in Catholic churches because I don't have to deal with committees--too many cooks in the kitchen. However, you have to have a good working relationship with your pastor or it can become difficult, to say the least. Some people thrive on working with committees, too, so everyone has to find what works best for them. I pretty much feel that I have been doing this for 33 years now (gosh that makes me seem old!) and have a master's degree from a well known music conservatory, so I consider myself to be a professional who knows what he is doing. The way I look at it is that I have about as much training, experience, and professionalism as a surgeon (though paid grossly less!) and I don't believe operations are done with a committee sitting around debating how it should be done.
On the other hand, I temper this with a huge amount of attention to people's reactions to the music I present. There are times when people have genuine gripes about what musicians do, and I try very hard not to be the typical "artiste" who won't listen to anybody. I always look for ways I can compromise without reducing what I consider to be the essential integrity of what I do. For instance, I have long ago stopped trying to win the battle on playing loud preludes. Since I work in a Catholic church where preludes are optional, I often do not play them at all, or only quiet ones. Only a couple times a year (Palm Sunday, for instance) do I play a loud prelude. I find it is very important to try to decipher what people are actually saying, as non musicians will often say things badly because they don't know how to describe what they're hearing. These amateur descriptions can at times be really offensive because they just don't know how to say it right.
On the other hand, there are times when people are simply obnoxious, and their issues are more about power, control, and inflexibility than carefully considered opinions. While I can be very patient with people, I am pretty impatient with these attitudes, which, unfortunately, are common in churches. I can recall one time telling a particularly stubborn choir member to go get a master's degree in music at Westminster Choir College and come back and then we'll discuss the issue.
As far as church politics go, I agree with Lars. I stay out of it as much as possible. When I was younger I would allow myself to get drawn into the petty backbiting and gossip, and worse, power struggles, and they ALWAYS backfired. I do not hang around the church, and I avoid the power struggles at all costs. It is tempting to try to bolster one's position through the back door politics, but it always created more stress and never worked for me. Basically, I am the "emperor has no clothes" type. I do not have closed eyes about all the ugliness that goes on in churches, but I try to live by my own moral code when it comes to others. What I find most difficult to deal with is the great number of people I see in churches who fervently profess all kinds of moral things, and then can't even seem to try to keep the basic "love thy neighbor" and "do unto others" ones. I try, as much as I can, to just remember these two and live by them and not worry about the other stuff. (While I like working in Catholic churches, I myself am not Catholic.)
On the other hand, I temper this with a huge amount of attention to people's reactions to the music I present. There are times when people have genuine gripes about what musicians do, and I try very hard not to be the typical "artiste" who won't listen to anybody. I always look for ways I can compromise without reducing what I consider to be the essential integrity of what I do. For instance, I have long ago stopped trying to win the battle on playing loud preludes. Since I work in a Catholic church where preludes are optional, I often do not play them at all, or only quiet ones. Only a couple times a year (Palm Sunday, for instance) do I play a loud prelude. I find it is very important to try to decipher what people are actually saying, as non musicians will often say things badly because they don't know how to describe what they're hearing. These amateur descriptions can at times be really offensive because they just don't know how to say it right.
On the other hand, there are times when people are simply obnoxious, and their issues are more about power, control, and inflexibility than carefully considered opinions. While I can be very patient with people, I am pretty impatient with these attitudes, which, unfortunately, are common in churches. I can recall one time telling a particularly stubborn choir member to go get a master's degree in music at Westminster Choir College and come back and then we'll discuss the issue.
As far as church politics go, I agree with Lars. I stay out of it as much as possible. When I was younger I would allow myself to get drawn into the petty backbiting and gossip, and worse, power struggles, and they ALWAYS backfired. I do not hang around the church, and I avoid the power struggles at all costs. It is tempting to try to bolster one's position through the back door politics, but it always created more stress and never worked for me. Basically, I am the "emperor has no clothes" type. I do not have closed eyes about all the ugliness that goes on in churches, but I try to live by my own moral code when it comes to others. What I find most difficult to deal with is the great number of people I see in churches who fervently profess all kinds of moral things, and then can't even seem to try to keep the basic "love thy neighbor" and "do unto others" ones. I try, as much as I can, to just remember these two and live by them and not worry about the other stuff. (While I like working in Catholic churches, I myself am not Catholic.)
NEB
New member
Thanks Thomas. I couldn't have asked for better anecdotes.
I've more than managed to solve the problem of this one person. I enlisted their help in sound checking to 'make sure' that I had the general volume levels from various stops combo's about right for accompanying the hymns and the choir. Thta I completely ignored any advice and just got on with it come service time is by the by - this person now thinks they set what I was doing. Let them think it - doesn't bother me - I'll play what I do regardless.... LOL
The old army trick of if someone gets troublesome stick a stripe on their arm and they'll soon sort themselves out...
I've more than managed to solve the problem of this one person. I enlisted their help in sound checking to 'make sure' that I had the general volume levels from various stops combo's about right for accompanying the hymns and the choir. Thta I completely ignored any advice and just got on with it come service time is by the by - this person now thinks they set what I was doing. Let them think it - doesn't bother me - I'll play what I do regardless.... LOL
The old army trick of if someone gets troublesome stick a stripe on their arm and they'll soon sort themselves out...
Muza
New member
I emphasize with you greatly, because I know what that feels like. I am experiencing things like that and sometimes far more outrageous at my work place too (its not a church, but the situations are similar). The workplace should not be a source of great frustration, anger, hatred every single day !!!
NEB
New member
I certainly wouldn't say my workplace was anything other than a pleasure. It had a small blip before christams, but that's long since solved, and I'm really enjoying this job!
Now I know that makes me very lucky to be employed to do the things I love most i.e. play beautiful music. What more could I ask for?
Now I know that makes me very lucky to be employed to do the things I love most i.e. play beautiful music. What more could I ask for?
Contratrombone64
Admiral of Fugues
Church politics are the pits, frankly. I asked a minister to apologise to me because he had said one thing to me, then the contrary came back from a third source. Not happy. He said "and if I don't?" ... I told him I was reading the intercessions ... He apologised.
Thomas Dressler
New member
NEB, that was a terrific way to deal with the problem!
Contratrombone, I think in my case at least, the ability to stomp on clergy's toes has developed as I've gotten older. When I was in my 20s and 30s, I'd just give in. But in more recent years I have, on a couple occasions, done some real toe stomping with associates. I have to admit, though, so far never with a pastor. You gotta know where to draw the line! But with associates, I see myself on a more equal footing and now that I sometimes work with priests younger than I am, it seems a bit easier to put them in their place when I absolutely have to. (But I can only recall doing that maybe once or twice.)
Contratrombone, I think in my case at least, the ability to stomp on clergy's toes has developed as I've gotten older. When I was in my 20s and 30s, I'd just give in. But in more recent years I have, on a couple occasions, done some real toe stomping with associates. I have to admit, though, so far never with a pastor. You gotta know where to draw the line! But with associates, I see myself on a more equal footing and now that I sometimes work with priests younger than I am, it seems a bit easier to put them in their place when I absolutely have to. (But I can only recall doing that maybe once or twice.)
methodistgirl
New member
How do you deal with people who don't want you to practice on their
organ no more? I have that problem. I can't practice Toccata & Fugue
or anything else now. They put me to practice on a piano that can't
stay in tune. I guess that's to prove that I'm hard on an instrument.
That is what it looks like to me. What do you think.
judy tooley
organ no more? I have that problem. I can't practice Toccata & Fugue
or anything else now. They put me to practice on a piano that can't
stay in tune. I guess that's to prove that I'm hard on an instrument.
That is what it looks like to me. What do you think.
judy tooley
Hi Judy,
That's got to be tough to take ... don't understand what "being hard on an instrument" means ... the more a pipe organ is played, the better it stays in tune. To banish you to such a sad piano is rather insulting, imho.
At my church I don't practice during regular office hours for a couple reasons:
- the volume levels of the organ are distracting to the office people,
- I never practice to an audiences - nobody ever hears me practice as I go either very late at night or at 3:00AM
methodistgirl
New member
Krummhorn I think I know why this happened. Remember when I mentioned
kicking a button by accident and I got blasted by music? That was probably
the last straw and they were just being nice about it.
judy tooley
P.S. please send reply soon.
kicking a button by accident and I got blasted by music? That was probably
the last straw and they were just being nice about it.
judy tooley
P.S. please send reply soon.
Judy,
We've all done that a time or two ... it's a simple mistake, although for some of us it's more embarrassing than anything else. It was my 2nd student organ concert ... I was 17 at the time ... the 17 rank Reuter organ didn't have a "tutti", and pistons were at a premium, so the Crescendo shoe was used to achieve 'full organ'. I finished the piece, hit the GC and the stops all turned off, and I failed to notice the 3 well lit amber lights indicating that the Crescendo shoe was wide open. I stood up on the pedalboard to exit the console ... oops!!
In your case though, it doesn't seem fair to banish you for making one little goof like that. Maybe you can find other places to practice ... local universities for instance ... maybe take an organ class ... maybe offer doing sub work for a church service in exchange for practice time ... we, who now play in churches have all had to take the giant leap at one time ourselves.
Flute'n'Pedal
New member
Hi Krummhorn,
I agree that it's a good idea to practise at night when nobody is around. But there is one problem, and that is that it can be dangerous for a woman. If a female organist does practise at night, she should keep her cell phone right beside her--especially when she's going in and out of the church.
LlL
I agree that it's a good idea to practise at night when nobody is around. But there is one problem, and that is that it can be dangerous for a woman. If a female organist does practise at night, she should keep her cell phone right beside her--especially when she's going in and out of the church.
LlL
methodistgirl
New member
That's another problem. I don't own a cell phone and I won't have one
either. I guess I could pester the baptist church. They have a pipe
organ that I think is ugly but just as practical. For one thing the church
I go to moved their prayer room upstairs close by the organ and I hope
it's just a temperary thing and I start up this spring or summer. I do have
respect for people who are praying and keep quiet. I hope they move the
prayer room elsewhere.
judy tooley
either. I guess I could pester the baptist church. They have a pipe
organ that I think is ugly but just as practical. For one thing the church
I go to moved their prayer room upstairs close by the organ and I hope
it's just a temperary thing and I start up this spring or summer. I do have
respect for people who are praying and keep quiet. I hope they move the
prayer room elsewhere.
judy tooley