organists have a bad character

This is a phrase I hear quite often in France to generalize. Solitary, rough, obstinated, strange, and unkind to those who would like to touch his organ. Is it true everywhere?
I have met only gentle organists yet. Why do we have such a bad image?!

Great question, and I hope other will chime in with their thoughts on this, too.

Here in the US, we have a good many 'snobbish' organists who put on such an air about themselves as being so very special - the rare gift to their trade - and talk in such a manner replying to a question with "we organists feel ... blah blah blah".

On one occasion or another, while trying to have a conversation with these snobbish types, look right through me like I'm a piece of glass, trying to catch glimpses of whomever may be noticing "them" ... how rude, indeed.

The situation of not being able to play these snobbish types instruments is true, even here in the US. In some cases, unless you have a doctorate degree in organ playing, you are nothing, and are not 'worthy enough' to play, let alone look at the console.

Sorry, but I have a problem with that ... the fancy scrolled paper with someone's signature that nobody can decipher does not make the musician ... the musician makes themselves a musician.

Unfortunately, those situations stereotype the profession in some ways as people always tend to dwell on the faulty points of our profession rather than all the good we actually do.

I do not have those degrees in organ, but I have been playing (and paid for it) in the Lutheran church for over 50 years, as well has having the good fortune to have played a good number of prominent organs here in the US as well as Europe.

Point is, I am neither better nor worse than those organists who have studied organ at the university level.

I am always elated to show anyone, who comes up to the console after services, anything they want to know about the organ - and even offer them the opportunity to play it.

Ours is a dying profession (church organist) and few are coming up through the ranks to take our place when we finally have our organ shoes bronzed and mounted on the wall. I began playing in church at age 12 ... few, if any, 12 year olds in this day and age would make that same kind of committment. What a pity.

I've never regretted that first opportunity to play in church ... and it happened only because the regular organist got sick that particular Sunday.


I don't have an answer on how we can remedy this tainted image

I've met many from both sides of that personality, some of whom I've thought "this would be a nice person to know" and others of whom I've thought "forget it!"

Thankfully, most that I've met (particularly the very well known ones) have appeared quite humble about what they do. For example, I've always enjoyed the occasions I've met up with Thomas Trotter. He has a quiet, unassuming nature and yet commands such a tremendously awe-inspiring skill. Same with Olivier Latry really (in my experience anyway). Daniel Roth too, seems to hold - dare I say - almost a childlike excitement and enthusiasm which he is only too happy to pass on to others (and who wouldn't, playing where he does?!!).

I can't stand the snobs - the ones who think they have some sort of ownership over an instrument that was built by someone before they were born. Or the sort who may begrudgingly let you have a play and then stand over you and change stops saying "you do know never to use that combination, don't you?" (I speak from experience, I won't repeat what I spoke immediately after that particular incident!)

I've seen no point in holding an arrogant "I'm doing this, you're not, therefore I'm superior to you" sort of attitude. It wins no friends and in an environment where "we organists" ( ) are trying to garner an interest in the instrument, it would do no favours either.

Stella Maris said:

This is a phrase I hear quite often in France to generalize. Solitary, rough, obstinated, strange, and unkind to those who would like to touch his organ. Is it true everywhere?

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Yep, and it applies to all the Grinders on this forum :clap::clap::devil:

I've very wary about who touches MY organ ... (tish boom)

:lol: .. I can always count on David .. :lol:

Hi to all.

The same here in Greece. And not only about organists (who are few....) but to all kinda musicians, singers, producers and so on.
Is a general virus and sikness.

One of the reasons why I'm glued to my virtual/digital organs is that the few Pipe Organists here react as Stella said. Almost impossible to reach and of course not at all to see the console or even try to play some notes on !!!!

In one ocasion, in a concert dedicated to Buxtehude in 2007, I got my 9 year old son (then) who happened to study the organ, with me in the church.
Though I'm well known as a composer (not organ...) I couldn't reach anyone to go upstairs to the organ (after rehearsal, before concert). But, as one of the sopranos of the choir knew the organists (2) she took my son along to the organ. He he, the poor father followed.

To my surprise I saw my son sitting on the console ready to play something on the Great (his feet were short then for the pedals) and my son under "stereo" supervision of the "experts" did the right move : he draw Gedackt 8' and Rohrflote 4' !! and played. Thank God, this combination is never wrong, even for Doctorat holders !!!

4minutes. That was. Come on, enough, it's time to go. Thank you, you're welcome. No luck for the poor father he he, never mind, Dino did it and made me proud:grin:

I have more stories on the matter.:devil:
Point is that all depends on the person itself. How gentle, open and cool is inside his/her soul.

Best
Panos

It's not just organists -- there have been a lot of prominent musicians who thought they were God's gift to humanity. A goodly number of violinists fit that description, and I always thought Vladimir Horowitz (and his wife) considered themselves a step above the rest. Somehow making a name can go to the head.

As for that "don't fool with the organ" part, in most cases, the organ does not belong to the organist anyway. True, in most churches the organ is probably pretty much left to somebody who is suppposed to know something about it. And in some cases, the church itself can be tricky to deal with, especially if it has a 'showpiece' organ.

The worst scenario is when somebody starts fooling with the stop combinations on the pistons. Now that some organs have electronic levels, that may not be such a problem (in many cases, some levels can be locked out), but it sure can be on older consoles.

All in all, it's like human beings anywhere - there are different personalities.

As a music-loving non-musician, I too have encountered this snobbery when I have attended organ recitals (very rarely these days). It was that, amongst other reasons, why I never joined the local AGO.

Ghekorg7 said:

. . . But, as one of the sopranos of the choir knew the organists (2) she took my son along to the organ. He he, the poor father followed.

To my surprise I saw my son sitting on the console ready to play something on the Great (his feet were short then for the pedals) and my son under "stereo" supervision of the "experts" did the right move : he draw Gedackt 8' and Rohrflote 4' !! and played. Thank God, this combination is never wrong, even for Doctorat holders !!!

4minutes. That was. Come on, enough, it's time to go. Thank you, you're welcome. No luck for the poor father he he, never mind, Dino did it and made me proud:grin:

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Panos,

What a thrill that must have been for your Son and yourself, the proud father. Certainly a special memory that he will have and treasure for many years.

I hang my head in shame when I witness organists acting as the worst "primadonnas" on the catwalk. Those are the ones whose entrails I'll love to use to throttle them with........

Well, I can only speak for myself and I'm definitely 100% not one of the snobbish ones.
Like Lars, I too haven't got the fancy scrolled paper to say I'm qualified to sit on the Organ bench, but I've been playing for some 20+ years now and my attitude is I'm me, take it or leave it.

Can't stand people who think they are better than others ...after all we all need to squat to .... don't we

Lars, Thanks. It will be for sure. As you see the scene is still alive in me...

Indeed this behaviour is spread out on every kind of people. Is a matter of culture and education and beyond, especially inside the very own soul of humans.

I had got a very good friend many years back. In 1979 we played in some bands that organized concerts together. He played the Hammond, me the piano and both a couple of synths and a clavinet. We went together at law school, studying and working at the same time as professionals. The only difference between us was that I had studied music and got "papers", he didn't, but he was very good. Also he never went to work as a lawer too.
At some point our roads separated as we choose different styles and of course got different proposals for music work.
We met again in 1995 in a big project with a very famous singer for a big tour. There I went as the sole keyboard player and he was the Maestro, directing. I saw a totaly different person..... He was very snob, not friendly, show off his excellence and tried to teach me how to play the parts like I was a student (!) going to a point where in one rehearsal I went after a very hard Court case with my suit on and briefcase (he he... not blending at all with the rest of the orchestra...) and when I sat at my heavy setup he took my left hand and placed it behind my back and told me to play with my right point finger only !!!!!
Luckily I was very tired to start a fight and thank God he didn't follow the tour, but it was the last time I saw him and I never will.

In Greece our wise people say : "beware of the son of the laundry woman if he gets power...."

Best
Panos

Panos, your proverb above describes all too well the narcissistic, ignorant moron that had me thrown out of the cathedral. The only reason it happened was because I and the principal organist showed up his countless faults and excerable inadequacies. Because his superiority complex was so immense, he could not bear to have someone else around who knew more than he is ever likely to. It's a disgusting state of affairs that people with woeful personalities bluff their way into positions of power, and then start bullying others because their fraudulent qualities are shown up (and they know it).

As for your situation above, I would have given some advice about some other things I could do with that index finger. It's completely beyond me why some people behave this way - who do they think they're fooling?

EDIT: Hmm, new streamlined look to the forum. Not bad. It certainly loads quicker.

Thanks my friend Soubasse ,
Disgusting was the word I was lookin' for ! and superiority complex. Exactly.
I just wish I had you with me on that rehearsal !!!!
Your story about the Cathedral incident adds one more case in this thread, which goes down deep for inner self quest...

I'm happy I'm a member here and I wish (once more) someday we can meet all together. I imagine a large Cathedral with two big organs, a smaller choir one, a grand piano and a special 2m harpsichord and all of us in there for a week !!!
My God, how many good things would be exchanged, techniques, preferences and music.... lotta music. All would have to play and play and play...

In 1984 there was a gathering like this, well, short off, and the administrator selected positive people, open minded and complex free. I was so lucky and honoured to be considered one and selected as instructor for Moog synthesizers. What a great time we had. I was so happy to show what Moog can do to so many people, aswering on every question, even the silly ones, also all the other instructors on organs, pianos ect were full of people asking almost everything. None was playing "expert" and at the end all visitors/participants (kinda seminar students) went home full anf filled.

Ok, I'm dreaming loud... must wake up.

Best
Panos

Years ago, when the church where I was the organist (1970) needed to replace the existing 5 rank Wicked (Wicks) pipe organ. We had bids from 5 pipe builders (Reuter, Casavant, Möller, Schlicker, Beiber) and 2 digitals (Allen, Rodgers). My role as part of the organ committee was to go out and play these different organs and report back.

I had arranged a meeting with the Rodgers representative, at a huge church with a 3 manual. After he played, demonstrating the stops, I was actually "invited" to also play, but it turned into an organ lesson ... "oh, you never want to use those two stops together" (I had drawn the oboe and a 4' flute with trem) or "you should never draw that 32' with that 16' pedal stop" or "don't you think your tempo is all wrong for that Bach piece!" or "why are you drawing all those stops by hand when you could simply use the Tutti?" Needless to say, I wasn't at all pleased ... I was never so insulted in my life, and right then and there, terminated the "demo", thanked the rep for his time and said "don't call us, as we won't be calling you!"

As to the dreams of Panos, they can become a reality at some point in time. I would like nothing better than for a large group of "we" organists lol to descend upon a place such as he mentions, and be able to share our talents with each other.

... I've always enjoyed it when church goers come to the console after services... anyone can try the instrument.... if a child wants to, great! If an interested adult, wonderful.

We will have that new Gluck instrument in a few months, and all are invited to give it a spin. Makes a lasting impression. :grin:

At my church, I actually try really hard to get people interested in our organ. But apart from a select few they're really not into it, besides just using it as hymn accompaniment. Perhaps they prefer more contemporary music. But I will always enthusiastically share my love for this great instrument with anyone and everyone. I would not be as successful as I have been without being passionate about doing it, and people who try to protect their organ and be on their high horse about their accomplishments will never be able to pass that joy onto others, which is one of my goals when playing publicly or talking to people about it.

But I too have seen and experienced the people you're talking about. At one church I attended several years ago, when I was a 10-year-old starting to get serious about the organ, people wanted me to share a voluntary during a service or two but the organist was too obsessive and protective. We actually had the church committee discuss it and they let me play the postlude, and there ended up being tens of people standing around watching me go through some Bach and they loved it. More recently, my last church before I started playing professionally arranged for me to do a prelude one week, and the organist is pretty friendly, but I can tell she's reluctant and on-edge when someone else uses the organ. Just before she turned it over to me to practice, she showed me where the key was in the opening under the bench...and made sure I wouldn't tell anyone.

I had the pleasure back in the late 1950's of meeting Virgil Fox through a fried who had studied with him at Curtis and found him down to earth and amusing. No airs at all.

Rob

GoneBaroque said:

I had the pleasure back in the late 1950's of meeting Virgil Fox through a fried who had studied with him at Curtis and found him down to earth and amusing. No airs at all.

Rob

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I had the same experience in the late 70's when he had his touring Allen and was in Pasadena, California. I was the Allen tech for Los Angeles County at the time.