Looking at education

[JHC]

I watched a quiz show on TV last week and one contestant a young girl aka lady of about 18 years and quite a bright young thing selected to answer questions on Geography it turned out she was studying Geography at university, the quiz master suggested that this should be a walkover for her to which she replied yes providing I don’t have to give place names I am rubbish at that?????????
Now I would have thought it would be pretty important to remember the names of places in that particular subject!
This led me to question education to day and in particular University education.
In my day if you were rich you could go to Uni if you were not rich the only way was a scholarship which were only available for the top students and you had to pass all of the tests, there were the core subjects math, engineering history geology etc so that if you did well you were on the way to a useful future.
To day it seems that anyone can go to University indeed it has become an expected part of growing up which should be available to all by right, but in NZ the universities are expected to run themselves and have to charge all students a fee so the kids have to take out “student loans” at a guess $25-30,000 which they have to repay when they are in work (if ever) the subjects are now made to suit every one as all need to pass so we get, flower arranging, basket making, Maori studies, media studies??? baking, electronic transactions etc these make sure no one fails so that we all feel good, BUT They are still expected to repay their loans when they gain employment ?
Now in reality there are those that will never make it so they can’t repay and the tax payer picks up the tab.
There are some very bright kids to day I am not knocking them, I just feel that the plot seems to have been lost along the way in that you don’t have to be smart to go to uni.

 

[John Watt]

Ontario, Canada: Students are seen as credit catches, paying off student loans for life.
Lots of degrees, no jobs. The province just made unpaid intern jobs illegal.

The disUnited States: Some universities have to teach graduates to write their name,
so they can sign their graduation papers.

New Zealand: Some Maori have to make movies about finding their ancestral strengths,
and the only thing they're now fighting about is residuals and content transfer.

Australia: Australia gave up on modern education a long, long time ago, so far ago and gone.
Seeing how many AC-DC clone bands popped up in North America,
all males are now enrolled in AC-DC Schools of Hard Rock.
They say they see in 2020 that one in five North American males will earn a living in a AC-DC clone act.
Another one in five will be on disability, blowing out their voices too early.

Japan: Universities take your tuition and invest it, to prove their intellectual worth,
and when students graduate, their tuition is returned to them.

John Watt World: It's either Nicolo Paganini or Jimi Hendrix trying to guide my hands through the ether,
and I have to tell them to leave me alone so I can learn my own style and find my own sounds.

Russia: Symphonic male tenor and bass vocalists are now required to work six months in a coal mine,
for free,
a strategic way to develop bass muscles.

Why be smart? Nowadays that's being too smart, and no-one likes too smart,
unless you're the smartest person in the room and have the wealth to prove it.
Why think your own thoughts? No-one else can see them. Let devices do it,
and show and send with everybody, everyone lost in a spell-check.

Stevie Wonder: "Suzy was in pigtails, her cellphone took nice pictures, we were always band to bandwidth,
she was made for video, so I let the camera go, on and on and on."

JHC! I like your fifth degree.

What business owners say: Someone has to drop out to make the jobs for students.

 

[JHC]

Yes John it seems to be the same here in that students are seen as a revenue stream ....The corporates are ruling the world and the politicians are just front men.

 

[Krummhorn]

I truly believe there should be some sort of apprentice program associated with any degree being sought much like medical doctors to their internships in hospitals or private care offices.

All too often, upon graduation, the 'book knowledge' is definitely there, but the student lacks having the 'hands on' experiences that are required in so many fields related to the music profession. I have seen organists come out of the universities with a DMA (musical PhD) and yet are unable to play in a church setting, where one is both leader and accompanist at the same time. And there are organists out there with absolutely no idea of how to play the piano. That's shameful and just not acceptable to me.

I am not opposed to higher education ... and it seems that some of the music industry required those degrees in order to even be considered for employment. But ... the degree does not make the musician ... the musician either makes it or doesn't on their own. No fancy piece of paper with signatures of university people we've never met in our life makes the musician a musician. We get out what we ourselves put into it.

I have an AA ... Associates of Arts ... it's a two year degree ... It does not get me squat in terms of employment requirements. What does get me desirable church positions is my experience and playing ability. I can ace the auditions with great ease - I did not learn my craft by reading a book - I earned my credentials by hands on experiences.

Student loans in the US must be paid back by the student ... they are usually at 8% interest to boot ... they cannot be forgiven by our government nor are they 'forgiven' if the student goes into bankruptcy proceedings. There was a trade school in California that 'promised' $65k a year jobs upon graduation as part of their brochure to lure students in ... of course that did not happen ... and that was buried in the 'fine print' in some legal mumbo jumbo wording.

 

[Dorsetmike]

Back in the 70's and 80's when I was working in the electronics industry, graduates would come into the labs and it was generally accepted that they would not produce any meaningful work for about 5 years, so nowt's changed!

There is no substitute for a time served apprenticeship run alongside a day release programme to a technical college where they do say 3 days hands on 2 days at college, alternatively a few months hands on followed by a few months college either way over a period of 3 to 5 years dependant on the type of work.

 

[John Watt]

Oh, I know, this is my left-handed approach to life,
but by the time I turned thirty I was saying it's getting too hard to learn something new.
And then I felt it was about time to do something about very disturbing statistics,
so I moved back to my home town to fight evil, as I said, what became being a protest mayoral candidate.
That's when a reverse world of uncivil behavior and crimes became known to me.
There are some things you don't want to know.

 

[JHC]

NZ has reduced the number of subjects available at Uni and raised the entry pass level the result is a large reduction in passes. it has been suggested that people that go to Uni should be those with higher intellegence and that it is not an option just because you want to go to Uni, students were arriving unable to cope or understand the basics.
At last commen sense prevails, damn! just as I was thinking of taking a degree in stand up comedy.

 

[Chi_townPhilly]

Full disclosure- your Humble Dilettante was (more decades ago than I care to think about right now) a 4-year Honors Program participant Bachelor of Science in Geography- Area Studies.

There are three topics nested in this thread that are worthy of their own discussion...

1) The scope of the study of Geography- and to what extent one can claim to be a credible student of Geography without familiarity of notable location-details--

2) The relevant distinction between intelligence and erudition- that is to say, the difference between one's capacity to learn and one's actual learning. Oh, the former aids the latter, to be sure-- but one has to be willing to apply the former in order for it to matter much--

3) The "value-added" (to the extent that any measurable value can be ascertained) in acquiring a modern college degree. Or, to put it in the terms used by (for instance) former Secretary of Education William Bennett: if we know nothing else about a person except that they have a college degree, what do we know about them compared to someone without one? That is to say, American college degrees cost tens of thousands of dollars, and sometimes a couple (or a few) hundred thousand dollars. What did that 6-figure expense buy?!?

 

[JHC]

I can’t read yellow on white for a reply so this will have to suffice.
Q1, I can’t comment upon Geography
　
　


Q2, If you don’t have the capacity to start with the rest is futile surely


I am not clear what you are getting at so excuse me if I am on the wrong track.

Value added! If for example a person has a BSc in engineering that would show that he knows the subject so if you are looking to employ an engineer he would be very high on you list.
Cost multi $$$$ Do you not have to take an entrance exam in the US or will dollars get any one in? and how about
scholarships are they a thing of the past?
What does a college degree tell you? it should tell you that you are more than competent in that subject but maybe the degree of competence can depend upon which Uni you attended.

 

[Krummhorn]

What does a college degree tell you? it should tell you that you are more than competent in that subject but maybe the degree of competence can depend upon which Uni you attended.

The "degree" or the "uni" doesn't make the person, imho. The person makes it or doesn't ... it all depends on how much work they apply given the tools from the school of their choice.

Personally, for me, and humbly my own opinion, a degree whether it be from Julliard or Fullerton State in California would not influence me in thinking either was better than the other. It's still a "degree" ... a piece of paper with signatures ... and should have equal chances for the available jobs.

Not everyone can afford ... or qualify ... for Julliard, Yale or Stanford ... I don't believe that their education processes are that much different than a local unknown university.

I can say I was taught by Charles Shaffer (which I was, btw) or I was taught by the late Virgil Fox. Again, neither teacher will "make me" better than the other ... it's what I do for myself and how much I am willing to apply in blood, sweat and tears learning the ropes, so to speak.

 

[JHC]

KH I did not say it made the person just that it tells to what you have achieved and that means a lot of hard work, are the arts any different from the sciences in that? well maybe.Your actual character or person is a thing in constant flux so would not bear any resembles to your academic achievements eg 10 tears ago I was an argumentative know all spoiling for a fight look at me now a real placid Mr nice guy.

 

[Krummhorn]

Fair enough, Colin ...

I see your point :tiphat:

 

[JHC]

I new you would cause you are the greatest mod on the www

 

[JHC]

Does this ring a Bell? A friend gave me the link and I reckon its spot on :grin:

 

[teddy]

If it didn't reflect modern life it would be funny. We have terrorists not only walking the streets over here but being financially supported by us because they have human rights, unlike the rest of us.

teddy

 

[teddy]

Something will have to be done about education in this country. My daughter has left the system as some of the state schools are more like zoos. 40% of teacher graduates are dropping out after spending thousands to achieve their degrees. My daughter was graded Excellent and still had trouble finding a place in a decent school as the system is totally left wing. A lot of the teachers have forgotten what they are there for and just seem to go through the motions so as to pick up their pay packet at the end of the month. Gove started to bring bin reforms but that wan*** Cameron sacked him to appease the left wing unions. Now he has proved himself to be a backstabber he will spend his political life in the wilderness. Maybe we need to return to Victorian values.

teddy

 

[JHC]

You have to have the 3 Rs if you want to grasp the basics yet some primary "teachers" seem to be a wee bit lacking in that dept, one dozy cretin said that writing was not at the top of her list as with modern technology it is fast becoming irrelevant. would you hire this person???

 

[John Watt]

hey, hey, come on now, it's not like you two to get into bitterness, no matter how polite.
Here's a better line, what works for the, uh, self-employed, and the don'wanna'be retired.

Someone has to drop out of school to start the businesses to hire the graduates.
That sounds better if you've got a shirt and tie on, or some lovely embroidered uniform,
even if you bought them new at Value Village, because the factory went under.

And considering what life is like today for musicians, artists and non musicians and artists,
all liking and having or owning and wanting, their downloaded signal,
you can sit back and wave a beer and say someone has to listen and buy their product.
Yeah!

Forgot not hiring her. I wouldn't even give her any dark chocolate covered raisins,
and Sweet Louisiana Heat mix, or fish sticks with maple syrup and local raspberries.
Ivana Trump, Ivana, Ivana, I vant it all.

 

[teddy]

there ARE PLENTY OF RICH PEOPLE WHO DID NOT HAVE A FORMAL EDUCATIONB. that IS DIFFERENT FROM INCOMPETENCE

TEDDY

 

[John Watt]

There can be formal education, or just making your own way through life,
as voluntary or enforced as that may be.
And we are all truly rich, if not excessive, if we are typing away on computers,
publishing ourselves online, for our own enjoyment as much as others.

You can be writing the music, you can be publishing the written music,
you can be performing the written music, or you can be turning the pages,
without mention of the instruments, stage, audience and venue.
Such is life with lower case font.